Sport's race car build

[Bob Paulin]

Well Bob,Did I ever see a lot of stuff that the rule book doesn't cover,Like moved upper control arms more anti dive,lowered motors,     (centre line of the crankshaft must be 12'' from the ground),fabed rear contol arms (uppers and lowers),Feul cells that werent quite centered.(most were to the left)For the most part the cages were centered but, there was a few, with them off to the left just a little.

As I said, take whatever you think they will allow you....not one-half-inch more, but not one-quarter-inch less.

Were the "...moved upper control arms" swapped from side-to-side? If so, that would suggest that the cars were using the early Nova/Camaro lowers to gain an inch-per-side in track width.

While you can change camber curves with fabbed front upper control arms and moved mounts, I don't think that there is a lot of advantage to be gained in fabbed rear control arms as opposed to tinkering with the rear control arm mounting points.

The rules say you can fab the rears, but they must meet OEM lengths and use OEM bushings (we'll get into that later.)

A left-mounted fuel cell reduces left-side percentages as the fuel - at seven-pounds-per-gallon - burns off. Does that make sense to you?

I would rather mount the cell on the right, make my percentages whichever way I have to for pre-race tech, and burn a few pounds of fuel off the right side - increasing my left side percentage - admittedly slightly, but increasing it nonetheless - as the race goes on.....but, as I said, you can be a virtual "choir boy" with a perfectly center-mounted fuel cell that burns fuel of the right side.

The top 3 cars were Metric followed by a Ford Granada ,then a Camaro.

I like the sound of that, since you've decided to go the Metric route.

I also got to thinkin' when I was there last night,All the roll cages were shoved up a high as they would go in to the roof,But what about lowering it a few inches to keep the weight down as low as we can get it,like you said take everthing I can get(LOL)
Also the cages were as far forward as they would go in the cars.

As far as being shoved far up into the roof, are you sure that the roof wasn't simply brought down to the top of the cage?

You can only take so much out of the height of the cage before it is too low to safely protect you in a rollover. Belts DO stretch, you know?

Some rule books require a minimum height over the driver's helmet when  he is strapped into the seat.

Dan's is at 40-inches - from the ground - according to his track's rulebooks, and it clears his helmet by the required three-inches when he is strapped in. His seat is mounted below the top of the frame rail, and he just barely meets the minimum clearance....but he DOES, and that's what matters.

I don't understand the "...as far forward.." thing, unless they felt that the car looked better with the cage tucked neatly against the "A" pillar....or the cages simply end up there when you follow the CSC instructions to the letter?!?!

I like a nice-looking car as much as the next guy.....but, I also like a faster car than the next guy. You're probably going to stand out with your front uprights a few inches back from the "A" pillar. but who cares?....as long as the car is "fast enough."

Note: The definition of "fast enough" is when you are going as fast as you WANT TO, and everybody else is going as fast as they CAN.

I was really paying close attention to the difference between the camaro/nova clip car vs. the metric cars.The clip cars, about 12 laps into the race looked like they started to go away on them.While the Metrics stayed more consistant.Then I got to thinkin the Nova that I drove would do the same(go away).Are we all dummies and dont know how to set the leafspring cars up or is something I am missing?(LOL)

It took a binding coil spring for me to understand why the leaf spring cars often "go away" during longer green flag periods.

I was working with one guy at Oxford - a Camaro - whose car would start the race and re-starts handling fine. A few laps under green, and a push would develop and continue to grow.

The confusing thing was that cranking more sway bar into the right front made the car a little better.

He ran a soft front coil (600 pounds IIRC) that had the coils so close that I could not stick my index finger between them in the pits.

What I rationalized happening was that on a start or re-start,  the car's tires (track spec, "DOT" American racer eight-inch) were cooler, and had a bit less grip.

As they heated, they gripped better, and the car rolled a bit more....causing coil bind in the right-front spring. Additional sway bar simply acted as a spring which kept the coils from coming down and binding.

Now, with the leaf cars, what happens when the tire heats up, they too roll a bit more....but unlike a coil spring which is linear in progression, the leaf spring is progressive.

So, the first inch in a coil spring may require 200 pounds of weight, but so does the second, third, fourth inches all the way up to coil bind.

On a leaf spring, however, the first inch may require 200 pounds, but the second inch may require 225 pounds, the third 250 pounds, etc.

So, if a rear coil handles an additional inch of roll, it increases the load on the rear tire by 200 pounds while a leaf might increase the tire load by 225 pounds for the same additional inch of roll.

On a leaf spring car, the front coils are handling the additional weight transfer due to the additional grip and body roll in a linear fashion while the rear springs are the additional weight in a progressive fashion.

This affects the front-to-rear balance percentages of the chassis as far as which end of the car is handling what percentage of body roll and weight transfer - with the rear end handling progressively more as the car goes faster - and rolls more - in the turns.

The all-coil cars are handling the additional weight transfer in a linear fashion - both front and rear increasing in a linear fashion, and maintaining the front/rear body roll/weight transfer percentages.

Remember I said that veteran drivers usually preferred coil springs? This is one reason why....consistency.

B.P.

[sport.]

Hey Bob,sure do know about the belt stretching part.seen a guy get hurt one time.
The guys a Flamboro seem to like hiding the cage in the front pillar.Thats what I meant.
I understand the fuel mounted to left would reduce left percentage as the race goes on.It only makes sence that the car would get light as it burns fuel,definatly not what you want.I would rather get more left side as the race goes on.Therfore mount the fuel to the right.right(LOL)

I checked to see if the roofs were chopped but they weren't.The cages were mounted really high.We have to have 3'' of head clearence between the top of the helmet and the halo,but I am pretty short 5.6''(LOL) so I am sure we can stand to lose a couple of inches if you think it will help any.
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I like a nice-looking car as much as the next guy.....but, I also like a faster car than the next guy. You're probably going to stand out with your front uprights a few inches back from the "A" pillar. but who cares?....as long as the car is "fast enough."

B.P

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As far as nice looking car and as fast car I'm sure we can do both.I am a metal fabricator and a bodyman by trade.So I am sure we can do both.I am pretty fussy on how my stuff looks.

Chad

[Bob Paulin]

Hey Bob,sure do know about the belt stretching part.seen a guy get hurt one time.
The guys a Flamboro seem to like hiding the cage in the front pillar.Thats what I meant.

Yup...it looks like a Cup car....NASCAR rules require that the cage follow the body lines.

Local outlaw Pro-Stock (Late Model) racers that must meet a roof height minimum, often have cages that are back nearly a foot from the "A" pillar, and down six-inches or so from the top of the door window opening

They are, by most judgements, still nice looking cars featuring fine craftsmanship and workmanship.

I understand the fuel mounted to left would reduce left percentage as the race goes on.It only makes sence that the car would get light as it burns fuel,definatly not what you want.I would rather get more left side as the race goes on.Therfore mount the fuel to the right.right(LOL)

Nope!

Using a 22 gallon fuel cell, you mount the fuel cell in the center - as required by the rules - then fill the left side with empty, rectangular, sealed gallon cans - like laquer thinner comes in - and the right side with standard fuel cell foam.

Make sure you either clean the labels off these cans - or, better still, pick up a dozen of so new cans from your paint supplier.

Most fuel cells will allow you to sneak these cans through the opening when the fill plate is removed.

You will then have a fuel cell that contains 11 or so gallons of gasoline on the right side, and a near-equal amount of air on the left side.

As the fuel gets used, it can only come from the right side of the fuel cell - since that is the only part of the fuel cell containing fuel.

You have, for all practical purposes, mounted an 11-gallon fuel cell to the right of the car's centerline.

If you decide to go to an extra-distance race, the fuel cell can be re-converted to 22 gallons by replacing the gallon cans with fuel cell foam, but 11-or-so gallons should be enough to get you through a Saturday night feature.

I checked to see if the roofs were chopped but they weren't.The cages were mounted really high.We have to have 3'' of head clearence between the top of the helmet and the halo,but I am pretty short 5.6''(LOL) so I am sure we can stand to lose a couple of inches if you think it will help any.

If YOU feel that you can maintain the correct margin of safety, by all means, drop the entire cage. It will help to lower the CoG.

As far as nice looking car and as fast car I'm sure we can do both.I am a metal fabricator and a bodyman by trade.So I am sure we can do both.I am pretty fussy on how my stuff looks.

I would not have it any other way, myself - although I have, on occasion, built the doggiest-looking car possible.....just for psychological purposes. Some people really get steamed when they get beat by what appears to be - from all outward signs - a piece of junk.

Some of you Mid-westerners may remember a Super Modified driver named Bob Seeley who used to pride himself on having the rattiest-looking Super in the country - if not the world.

It was, however, also one of the fastest Supers in the country - if not the world. I saw him run on the high-banked, five-eighths mile at Thompson, Connecticut a number of years ago.

He would do things like repair a tear in a metal panel with wire - making it look like medical stitches, complete with red highlights where the stitches penetrated the "skin."

But, generally speaking, my creative ego is as strong as the next guy in wanting to show off some craftsman-like way of doing something. I'm constantly buying little pieces of hardware at surplus outlets in order to be able to mount or string something with a nice look to it.

B.P.

[sport.]

Using a 22 gallon fuel cell, you mount the fuel cell in the center - as required by the rules - then fill the left side with empty, rectangular, sealed gallon cans - like laquer thinner comes in - and the right side with standard fuel cell foam.

Make sure you either clean the labels off these cans - or, better still, pick up a dozen of so new cans from your paint supplier.

Most fuel cells will allow you to sneak these cans through the opening when the fill plate is removed.

You will then have a fuel cell that contains 11 or so gallons of gasoline on the right side, and a near-equal amount of air on the left side.

As the fuel gets used, it can only come from the right side of the fuel cell - since that is the only part of the fuel cell containing fuel.

You have, for all practical purposes, mounted an 11-gallon fuel cell to the right of the car's centerline

B.P
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I know what you meant.I just re-read what I wrote and I didn't explain it very good(LOL)

The tubing for the X in the frame do you suggest using 1 3/4" -.095 round tubing or do you suggest something else?.I am gonna price the tubing at work tommorrow.

Also is there a break coversion where I can adapt bigger breaks?That was one of the thing I didn't like about the Metric car was the breaks went away after a while when you were in traffic.My cousin works a parts store so he can get me most of the stuff I need.Plus another big bonus is my mothers cousin owns a scrap yard.

Chad

[Bob Paulin]

The tubing for the X in the frame do you suggest using 1 3/4" -.095 round tubing or do you suggest something else?.I am gonna price the tubing at work tommorrow.

I've used 1-3/4" tubing, but on Dan's new car, I'm giving serious thought to 1" X 2" rectangular. It will give us another 3/4' to drop the floor without any loss of strength.

The 1-3/4" tubing has a 5.49 circumference while the 1X2 has a 6-inch circumference. You could even go to 1 X 3.

Also is there a break coversion where I can adapt bigger breaks?That was one of the thing I didn't like about the Metric car was the breaks went away after a while when you were in traffic.My cousin works a parts store so he can get me most of the stuff I need.Plus another big bonus is my mothers cousin owns a scrap yard.

If you're talking the 1-3/4" piston Metric caliper conversion, and you can get away with it go ahead.

On Dan's car, they check the piston size, so we installed phenolic pistons - available from NAPA - which really did a good job insulating the fluid from the heat, and maintaining the brakes throughout the race.

He also works in a NAPA store, and found some bigger rear wheel cylinders that bolted up in stock position. IIRC it was a power brake versus a manual brake deal.

Your parts store guy should be able to look up the specs...If not, I have all the spec books here.

Between the two, he had good brakes this year - better than he's had in the past with a Chevelle chassis and 1-15/16" calipers.

As a matter of fact, he had to cut a three-quarter-inch groove in the front pads to help with a brake push on turn entry.

Originally, I was going to bore out a pair of Metric calipers to take the 1-3/4" pistons, but he says that the car is really good with well-balanced brakes that make it throught he whole race now with no brake problems whatsoever.

In your case, though, I think I would go with the 1-3/4" calipers and convert them to phenolic pistons. You'll probably do a lot more braking than Dan does at Shediac - a sweeping, almost circular third-mile.

B. P.

[Bruce Dorsi]

On Dan's car, they check the piston size, so we installed phenolic pistons - available from NAPA - which really did a good job insulating the fluid from the heat, and maintaining the brakes throughout the race.

.......................
Bob, if brake fluid temperature is an issue, is fluid re-circulation allowed, desirable, or practical?

Speaking of Shediac, have you visited the "Golden Fry" on the main street thru town?  ...Good burgers, fries, and lobster rolls!

Interesting dialog in this thread!  
....I wonder if Chad's competitors are following along?  

[Bob Paulin]

Bob, if brake fluid temperature is an issue, is fluid re-circulation allowed, desirable, or practical?

Nope....brake re-circulation is, pretty much, limited to the upper levels of racing.

Sport's and Dan's cars are intended to be true "stock" cars, and such expensive aftermarket technology is really frowned upon....

...these are Saturday night, hobby racers.

We tried the phenolic pistons for the first time this year with Dan's car, and the results really exceeded our expectations.

Speaking of Shediac, have you visited the "Golden Fry" on the main street thru town?  ...Good burgers, fries, and lobster rolls!

Nope....but we usually try to have at least one meal at the Four Seas not far from the Parlee Beach entrance headed into town. Great seafood there.

Dan lives in Grand Digue - about ten miles north of Shediac, and I get to have authentic, Acadian home-cooking when I stay with him....just like my grandmother and mother used to make.

Interesting dialog in this thread!  
....I wonder if Chad's competitors are following along?  

Possible, but not probable......

....still, there are a few things that I will be discussing with Chad via PM or e-mail just to cover that possibility.

B.P.

[sirstude]

As an interested bystander, I have been enjoying this thread.  The question I have for Sport, is could the roofs on those cars you looked at, just been moved to the rear, and/or shortened to make the front bars line up with the "A" pillars?

Doug

[GPster]

This is a great forum. It gives me something good to  and be entertained rather than trying to figure out every detail of what I should be doing. I think we should have another forum project. Lets turn the Rambler into a circle track race car. Just think of the build days we could have and the meals we could eat at our mobil kitchen. At the rate that Frank is going on the house that other 85% should be done by November and the grass should have stopped growing (you don't plow snow neked do you?) If Carps can't even get a vacation the Rambler might rust to the ground or Fat Cat will elect to make a "demo" car out of it. GPster

[unklian]

Hanley and Beiderman put on some of the best racing anywhere.
Don Beiderman was The Master in traffic,
I lost interest in pavement racing after he retired.





What are the weight rules for this class at Flamboro ?
I remember they got tough on the street stocks,
with l/r and f/r percentage rules.

[Bob Paulin]

Hanley and Beiderman put on some of the best racing anywhere.
Don Beiderman was The Master in traffic,
I lost interest in pavement racing after he retired.

Don's driving style was, shall we say, "aggressive", while Junior was smooth.

Both were exciting to watch in my book.

At Oxford, they used to call Beiderman "Beater Man".

What are the weight rules for this class at Flamboro ?
I remember they got tough on the street stocks,
with l/r and f/r percentage rules.

Chad's car (Thunder Car Division) will have to weigh 2,900 pounds with a maximum 53 percent (1537 pounds) left-side.

There is no front/rear weight rule.

He tells me he has to meet weight rules BEFORE the race, so I am suggesting he shoots for full 53 percent left, and as much rear as possible.

The fuel cell trick should give him an additional half-percentage point of left side if he has burned off 4 gallons or so at the end of the race - removing 28 pounds of right-side weight and total car weight.

Gaining a half-point may not seem like much, but, don't forget,  most of his competitors will likely be losing a half-point of left side percentage - more if they are running left-biased fuel cells - which will amount to a full percentage point difference in weight distribution between Chad's car and the others at the end of the race.

B.P.

[sport.]

As an interested bystander, I have been enjoying this thread.  The question I have for Sport, is could the roofs on those cars you looked at, just been moved to the rear, and/or shortened to make the front bars line up with the "A" pillars?

Doug

It probably could but were are not supposed to lay the roofs down any.If I moved it back that would in turn lay the windsheild back a few inches(3-4'').It would look really neat but,I think they would kinda frown apon that.I want to stay away from the tech commity as much as possible.(LOL).

Chad

[sport.]

Bob the only thing they check is that your breaks are in working order.We are allowed to adjustable porportioning to adjust break bias.
We do use a lot of break a Flamboro.If you could shoot me the specs on the breaks I will get my cousin on top of it.He is not much of a car guy just a computer geek.So I would feel better getting the specs before hand and then getting him to look them up.If possible.

The tubing for the X,The chassis builders around here (Mcoll,Millwain)have been using square tubing for the X's.I thought I mentioned it but I guess I didn't.

Also Bob If you go to the Flamoboro website And look under tack info It shows an overhead view of the track.It should give you some idea what I am up against.What the corners are like etc..It also gives you a bit of a write up about the track like degrees in the banking etc...

[sport.]

Bob,

I was wondering if your cousin Danny uses power steering on his car?I have drove with both.Then Nova I liked the standard steering,and the metric car I seemed to over drive it with the power.I never tried standard on the Metric.I guess it's just preference thing.

[Bob Paulin]

Bob the only thing they check is that your breaks are in working order.We are allowed to adjustable porportioning to adjust break bias.

We do use a lot of break a Flamboro.If you could shoot me the specs on the breaks I will get my cousin on top of it.He is not much of a car guy just a computer geek.So I would feel better getting the specs before hand and then getting him to look them up.If possible.

The standard Metric rear wheel cylinder is a 3/4"...NAPA # 37625

What YOU are looking for is a 7/8" wheel cylinder for a 1983-88 S-10 WITHOUT power brakes...NAPA # 37644.

The S-10 uses the same 3/4" Metric cylinder for its power brakes.

The tubing for the X,The chassis builders around here (Mcoll,Millwain)have been using square tubing for the X's.I thought I mentioned it but I guess I didn't.

Even if they are only using 1-1/2 X 1-1/2, while they are maintaining perimeter wall sizing, they are not really gaining any space. In that case, I think I would prefer 1-3/4" round.

But, as I pointed out, the 1" X 2" rectangular will give me equivalent perimeter wall, but will also allow me to place the driver's seat 3/4" lower than with 1-3/4" round.

I was wondering if your cousin Danny uses power steering on his car?I have drove with both.Then Nova I liked the standard steering,and the metric car I seemed to over drive it with the power.I never tried standard on the Metric.I guess it's just preference thing.

The Maritimes Sportsman rules require the use of stock, OEM power steering.

There are two things that I have learned in running power steering and keeping it alive on the oval-track.

Under drive it, and find the right pressure relief valve.

We started running P.S. back in the early '70s when I had a driver who weighed just about 100 pounds - including his helmet.

After a lot of experimentation - and burned-up pumps -  we ended up under-driving the pump with a three-inch pulley that was originally used to drive the Fisher snowplow hydraulic pumps. That drove the pump at 50 percent the speed of the usual six-inch pulley.

And.....we found out - the hard way - that there really IS a difference between the pressure relief valves found on a Chevette PS pump and a Cadillac PS pump...LOL!!

We had access to a "Used Automotive Component Emporium", so we were changing PS pumps every three-four weeks as a maintenance thing.

Well, one week we found a nice-looking Saginaw pump from a Caddy, and installed it.

Driver came in and complained that he couldn't feel a thing in the steering. Luckily, we had the old pump with us as a spare. We put that on and all was hunky-dory.

We then rationalized what was happening, and took the pressure relief valve out of the old pump, and installed it in the new pump, and installed the pump on the race car.

Next week, driver asked us if we didn't have the time to install a new pump, and were we going to risk another week on the old pump??

Since that time, we changed the pump, but swapped relief valves....and, in those days, we had to knock the can off the pump to change the relief valve. I don't think you have to do that much work to change a relief valve today.

I would suggest starting out with a pump/relief valve from a smaller, lighter car. If that feels good to you, keep the valve whenever you must change the pump.

You don't need a lot of pressure - just SOME power assist.

B.P.