Sport's race car build

[Bob Paulin]

I  was gonna ask about boxing the frame,After the frame is blasted.

I cannot remember the last time I boxed a frame - seriously!

While boxing a frame has valid applications in the Street Rod realm, we use triangulation and a lot of structural tubing these days, and in many areas - such as the right-side perimeter rail -  the car's frame is just along for the ride. You will be, essentially, riding in a tubular space frame.

How much do would you shorten the halo?

That's going to have to be a judgement call on your part.

According to the "CSC Chevy Stocker Universal Chassis" blueprint I have, they suggest that the main hoop be placed 21.5 inches ahead of the center of the rear axle. That falls on the perimeter rail. You'll be moving that back 3 or 4 inches or more.

Then, it says that the distance from the rear of the main hoop to the front of the window pillar bar - the bar I've been calling the knee bar - at the frame is 44.5 inches....and that attaches to the frame a distance of 42-inches from the center of the front axle to the front of the bar.

If the main hoop gets moved back four inches, then the front window pillar bar will sit four inches further back from the "A" pillar without cutting the halo.

You really don't want to move the front of that halo bar so far back that your head can hit it in a hard crash when the seat belt stretches.

Maybe an inch or two, but give it a good, hard look. Sit yourself as low as you will be sitting in the car back near, but not against the main hoop to allow for seat thickness, and picture yourself stretching forward and upward in a head-on into the wall.

You MAY even want to consider NOT doing this.

I build my own cages with a much different top halo setup.

Also I have access to some 8 inch I-beams,If you really think I should tie the frame down.to do all the prep work.

If you build a simple, square and plumb rectangular frame from the I-beams, and fab up a few fixtures that locate the major suspension piece attachment holes at ride height, there are two benefits I can think of.

First is the obvious. You can build a car that is held in perfect alignment while it is being welded, measured and tweaked.

The second - and maybe MORE important benefit will come if you ever have to replace a clip.

You will simply bolt the chassis center section and good end to your jig fixtures, then bolt the new clip to its own locating fixtures. Then simply weld everything together, and everything should be aligned as when the car was originally built.

You're getting an early start, and it looks as though you have the metalworking experience to build the jig without too much trouble.

I think you will be glad you did. You might even pick up a few dollars replacing clips for your buddies.

Build the fixtures to set the chassis at ride height as measured from the top of the jig's I-beams. You can measure everything else off that.

Build some adjustable legs for the jig that will set the top of it around 18-24 inches....which sets the top of your chassis at 24-30 inches, making it a pleasure to work on.

There's no real "correct" height. Make it a comfortable working height for your own personal height.

Depending on the room you have in your shop, you can either put big casters on it to roll it aside, or put a rear axle off a FWD car on one end and a trailer hitch at the other end to move it in and out of your shop.

In either case, make sure the jig is sitting on its leveling legs when being used. The jig should not be on its casters or trailer wheels when being used.

I am using an old John Bean front-end alignment rack which can double as a nice level setup pad. I told you I was cheap....er, frugal.

When you put the X in the chassis do you go right throught the frame.Like through the inside of the torque box and right out to the other side and weld both sides?

No.......

........because I'm trying to line up the end of each "X" leg with the clip frame rail. The "X" serves two functions. It reduces the flex of a frame, and it helps keep the frame from diamonding from a hard hit on the corner of the frame. You can gusset it if you choose (I don't), but running it through the frame doesn't really add anything. Proper roll cage design works with the "X" to keep the clip from twisting up and down....

.....and, if you ever have to replace the clip as mentioned above, it will be much simpler to cut the damaged frame material around the tubing that is butted to the clip, then grind the end of the tubing to fit up the new clip.

It would not be possible to thread two opposite-facing side of the "X" into the new clip, so your replacement might not end up being exactly as the original in that situation.

It's not that I don't have faith in your driving abilities, but I've been around the sport long enough to plan ahead for crash repairs....even with the best Cup drivers.

As for the tube thickness for the front and rear hoops,do you recommend
using .083 thou tube?If thats what you think I should use I will get it.I work in a metal fab shop so I'll just order it through my work.

I believe using .083 outside of the main roll cage area is a safety factor.

It gives you some additional crush factor to absorb energy in a crash. NASCAR requires it in their race cars - along with some specific front and rear hoop designs, which I would encourage you using.

I do have access to to a tube bender (not a pipe bender)I have access to one of the drill press tube notcher.

Sounds good!

Starting to excited!!

You've got a lot to do - even more if you build yourself a jig - but I just wanted to make a note.

When you install the so-called "dash bar" between the two front uprights, make sure it comes in at the same height as the horizontal bar across the middle of the main hoop. I'm pretty sure that's the way CSC recommends, but I wanted to make sure, because it will be a factor a bit later in the build.

I'll be adding to your "TO DO" list soon.

He Bob got any pics of the cars you have built?Sure would like to see some of your work.

I've got pics, but no scanner....sorry.

As far as using quotes, you click the "reply" in the upper right hand corner of the message you want to reply to.

At the beginning of the message will be a "quote=***" in square brackets, and at the end will be a "/quote" - also in brackets.

Cut and paste the first one where you want a quote to begin, and cut and paste the second one where you want the quote to end. That's what I do!


Hey guys, do you think we ought to move this all to a new thread or change the name to "Sport's Race Car Build" ?

It might attract more attention and more forum traffic under that title.

Just a thought.

B.P.

[enjenjo]

Hey guys, do you think we ought to move this all to a new thread or change the name to "Sport's Race Car Build" ?

Like this?

[sport.]

Hey Bob,You know Junior? The guy who builds my engines (Gord Hayward) Is one of my grandfathers best freinds.He used to chum and race against  JR..I was at JR.'s shop when I was a kid,actually I've been their a few times..I'm not sure if he still livies in Milton or not.Jr used to run Flamboro quite a bit.His rival was Don Beiderman.Them 2 put on some of the best short track racing I can remeber.You should look under Flamoboro's Racing history section on their web page.

The I beams will be here next Sunday.The frame should be here the sunday after if everything goes right.

I have some heavy duty castors for the jig table.When I make the legs out of tubing I was gonna box the end of the tubing so I take the castors on and off when in use.

I'm sure we can off set the cage a little not a whole lot tho.There is a few cars already with the cage shoved a little to the left.

The Tech guys pay more attention to the safty aspect of it.And they are always tearing an engine apart.They think it's just someone always cheating with the mill end of it.Not that I would   (LOL)

Chad

[SKR8PN]

I hope you boys keep right on typing.................
Don't change a THING............
I am learning a LOT from this one...............
I love it when you can "creatively" read the rules

[sport.]

Hey Bob I was thinking a work today about the rear trailing arms.If we ran longer ones in the rear,would that not  produce less angular change in the rear end housing when moving up and down?...Maybe I am nuts?

[OldSub]

I'm not likely to have anything to contribute to this thread, but I'm sure enjoying reading it!

[sport.]

I'm not likely to have anything to contribute to this thread, but I'm sure enjoying reading it!

I thought some people would not be interested.Glad to see a few are.

[OldSub]

I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy learning more about how suspension changes affect performance.  And race cars are always fun.

So my vote is to keep the dialog going!

[sport.]

I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy learning more about how suspension changes affect performance.  And race cars are always fun.

So my vote is to keep the dialog going!

I learn something everytime I time around .There is alot of trial an error beleive me.That why I asked Bob for some help.And He has come through big time.I never expected him to jump right in and guide me through.(thanks again)I have built race cars before that were so so.but this ones gonna be right......I hope(LOL)

Chad

[tomslik]

I'm not likely to have anything to contribute to this thread, but I'm sure enjoying reading it!

I thought some people would not be interested.Glad to see a few are.

you're kidding, right?

[Bob Paulin]

SERIOUS DISCLAIMER...

Our society has reached a point where I am advised that, in order to protect myself from possible lawsuits, I should include a statement of non-liability in this forum. Since I believe that a human being is wholely responsible for his own actions, I strongly object to this necessity and to the morality that has spawned it. However, I would object even more strongly to being sued.

The price of man-in-motion is the occasional collision. Motor racing is dangerous. In order to be competitive in this business, it is necessary to operate at the outer edges of the performance envelope. The closer we come to the edge, the greater the risk of falling off becomes.

Much of what I write here - and this thread in particular - is about improving the performance of the race car and its driver - particularly in respect to the roadholding department. It deals with the deliberate exploration of the outer limits of traction. The closer the race car approaches its potential in this department, the less forgiving it becomes - and the greater the chances of paying a sudden-stop-type of penalty become when an error in judgement occurs.

If, while attempting to apply any of the ideas, procedures or advice contained in my postings, any of you should become unstuck, you will have done so through your own conscious decision. I disclaim any responsibility for your actions - or for your accident.

Bob Paulin

Hey Bob,You know Junior? The guy who builds my engines (Gord Hayward) Is one of my grandfathers best freinds.He used to chum and race against  JR..I was at JR.'s shop when I was a kid,actually I've been their a few times..I'm not sure if he still livies in Milton or not.Jr used to run Flamboro quite a bit.His rival was Don Beiderman.Them 2 put on some of the best short track racing I can remeber.You should look under Flamoboro's Racing history section on their web page.

I never really "knew" Junior....I just got to talk with him a few times when he raced in Maine, and the conversation often turned to the technical aspect of his cars.

Are you familiar with his statement, "Do you know how much a gallon of paint weighs?" That's the answer I got when I asked him why he didn't paint his roll cages.

While Junior did some outrageous things - I remember the "anteater car" in Florida back in the '70s - I think he built a good basic car, and played psychological games with some of the trick stuff.

Daytona Don Beiderman and I knew each other fairly well from his forays to Oxford. I still have a Howe Racing hat that he swapped with me for an Oxford 250 hat.

The I beams will be here next Sunday.The frame should be here the sunday after if everything goes right.

Looks to me like you have a week to build a jig...then you can start fitting some fixtures to the chassis.

I have some heavy duty castors for the jig table.When I make the legs out of tubing I was gonna box the end of the tubing so I take the castors on and off when in use.

As long as you can set it up solidly and level on the shop floor....that's what really matters.

I'm sure we can off set the cage a little not a whole lot tho.There is a few cars already with the cage shoved a little to the left.

Take everything you can get.....

....You DO know that offsetting the body an inch or two provides an optical illusion as it relates to the cage.....but, I'm sure your tech people will look specifically at where the cage is sitting.

The Tech guys pay more attention to the safty aspect of it.And they are always tearing an engine apart.

Yeah, but....YOU don't want to be the guy who causes a renewed interest on the tech guy's part in chassis building tricks.

They think it's just someone always cheating with the mill end of it.Not that I would   (LOL)

Which reminds me, I need to give the following, less-serious disclaimer.

My knowledge of and discussion of anything that circumvents the intentions of the rulebook is neither an admission nor a denial of having applied such practices in the past, present or future.

B.P.

[sport.]

B.P.[/quote]If, while attempting to apply any of the ideas, procedures or advice contained in my postings, any of you should become unstuck, you will have done so through your own conscious decision. I disclaim any responsibility for your actions - or for your accident.

Bob Paulin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally understand your position Bob.I am just greatfull for the knowledge you are willing to share.I would never blame somebody for my own actions.I realize the danger in motorsports.But its SOOO much fun!!!(LOL)

Any way I am goin' down to Flamboro tonight.I am gonna take a look through the pits at all ther other cars.anything in peticular I should be looking for?

And for the bodies on these things,we are allowed to cut out the door posts,rocker panles,hood and trunk bracing etc...I am just gonna hang the body on it, as you would a latemodle.Sound like a good idea?

What Track does your cousin Danny Race at? I was just browsing around the net for race tracks to see of they had a pic of the car.

Chad

[Bob Paulin]

Hey Bob I was thinking a work today about the rear trailing arms.If we ran longer ones in the rear,would that not  produce less angular change in the rear end housing when moving up and down?...Maybe I am nuts?

Your thinking is okay, but who's to say that we don't actually want to *shorten* the arms for a more aggressive roll steer? Roll steer is a good tool on paper-clip-shaped tracks.

Let's plan on stock length for now.....maybe - at some point - you can make up a pair of longer and a pair of shorter arms in your spare time if the car is not dailing in like you would like, but I would rather simply drill a couple of extra holes above and below the stock holes on the frame and axle to adjust roll steer.

The stuff I work with requires stock arms - no fabricated...so that's what I work with.

There's "good" roll steer which will help you coming out of the turn, and there's "bad" roll steer which will fight you coming out of the turn.



B.P.

[Bob Paulin]

Any way I am goin' down to Flamboro tonight.I am gonna take a look through the pits at all ther other cars.anything in peticular I should be looking for?

It's really hard to say....I guess I always keep an eye out for something that appears to be modified from stock, or "not quite" fitting my interpretation of the rules, but seems to be acceptable to tech.

For example, we've touched on offset cages...How much are you seeing as far as offset goes?

Up in the Maritimes, there is a rule that you cannot mount the cage on a leg that runs from the "X" to the perimeter frame.

The cage MUST be mounted on the frame, and there is a minimum hoop width (32-inches) - although we offset Dan's cage about 14-inches legally.

The front hoop (I made two main hoops and connected them at the top) was bent slightly narrower, and mounted - at approximately a 45° angle - on the front clip where it starts to go up from the torque box. The top portion is laid back no further than the knee or window bar in a conventional cage, but I moved everything over.

That moved that portion of the cage in a full eight-inches from the inside of the perimeter rail legally....it WAS mounted on the frame.

The rest of the offset was accomplished with an asymmetrically-bent main hoop.

And for the bodies on these things,we are allowed to cut out the door posts,rocker panles,hood and trunk bracing etc...I am just gonna hang the body on it, as you would a latemodle.Sound like a good idea?

With a bunch of phantom hardtops out there, so much for Rule #3...."Body must be stock in appearance....etc... LOL!!!

I'd be willing to bet that somebody argued that the removal of door posts makes it easier to see around the car....thus making it safer. Of course, removing a couple of pounds from above the beltline NEVER came into consideration, did it?

But, somewhat lax enforcement of these rules should make it easier to "slip" a bit to the left and rear with the body to camouflage some of the roll cage offset.....and, move some more weight to the left and rear.

Every little bit helps.

Like the politician says, "A million here, a million there....pretty soon it starts to add up to some "real" money."

What Track does your cousin Danny Race at? I was just browsing around the net for race tracks to see of they had a pic of the car.

His name is Dan Bourque and he races at Centre for Speed in Shediac, N.B.

http://www.centreforspeed.com/

He races the blue and yellow NAPA #15 Sportsman car.

To tell you the truth I don't spend a lot of time on the track's website since it is slower than death on my dial-up service.....must be something to do with Canadian customs duties when the electrons cross the border....so, I don't even know if there is a picture on the website....

.....but he finished second in points this year, and he won the three-segment "Triple Crown" race this year, so they ought to have at least one or two.

Now, I'm gonna' hafta' go look.

The Maritimes Sportsman is a cross between a Super Street Stock and a Pro-Stock or Late Model.

Stock chassis between steering/suspension points, but aftermarket Pro-Stock/Late Model bodies, running on the so-called Goodyear "Chile" tire. They look like Late Models from the stands, but they are awfully stock under the skin......my type of racing where massaging stock parts is more important than the size of your checkbook.

B.P.

Addendum...

Just went there.....

http://centreforspeed.photosite.com

Click on the lone car picture to open up the albums.

Go to "Chapter 7 - Super Sportsman"

The first one you'll see of the #15 is Danny testing how well his brakes work in reverse....LOL!...but there is also a checkered flag shot....maybe more, I didn't scroll down much.

B.P.

http://centreforspeed.photosite.com

[sport.]

Bob,Did I ever see a lot of stuff that the rule book doesn't cover,Like moved upper control arms more anti dive,lowered motors,     (centre line of the crankshaft must be 12'' from the ground),fabed rear contol arms (uppers and lowers),Feul cells that werent quite centered.(most were to the left)For the most part the cages were centered but, there was a few, with them off to the left just a little.

The top 3 cars were Metric followed by a Ford Granada ,then a Camaro.

I also got to thinkin' when I was there last night,All the roll cages were shoved up a high as they would go in to the roof,But what about lowering it a few inches to keep the weight down as low as we can get it,like you said take everthing I can get(LOL)
Also the cages were as far forward as they would go in the cars.

I was really paying close attention to the difference between the camaro/nova clip car vs. the metric cars.The clip cars, about 12 laps into the race looked like they started to go away on them.While the Metrics stayed more consistant.Then I got to thinkin the Nova that I drove would do the same(go away).Are we all dummies and dont know how to set the leafspring cars up or is something I am missing?(LOL)Or do I do much thinkin'(LOL)


Chad