95 olds just dies

[rooster]

do you think that it's strange that one of the 3 identical coils has measures half the resistance of the others...

go a hair drier near by where you could heat the coils up to about 200 F... while you are measuring them, actually the one that is giving you the low reading...

similar problems with fuel injector windings...   they read lower than spec...  and when they get hot, they pull even more current...   more than the circuit can supply... more load than the computer can handle...


if the pintles were stuck open...  that egr valve would get really really hot do to the constant exhaust flow...  i bet the engine will idle better..


you also might want to verify that the passages in the engine are open... intake and exhaust..

I really dont know for sure if the reading is off or not, I can only go by what I've been reading, My best guess if the worst case of amp draw would be when all three coils are being powered at the same time. Dont know if it 1 amp per coil or 1 amp for all 3.

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/engine-problems-and-general-info-read-before-posting-t42708.html#492871

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/dec97/egr.htm

http://60degreev6.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-25397.html

Heat test is under way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      

Did you find your amp reader?

[wayne petty]

nope.... its probably still in the work van..  i might have left it in the room and it got tossed... i am still missing a few personal tools that  got left in the van...   since he moved to hemet... i will have to wait for his return to la to get at them..

try not to melt it...

did you see the test i saw on the first link about testing the pull of the electro magnets that pull the pintles in...


Step 2: Testing

(Word of caution, just to prepare you. You may receive a VERY SMALL shock, if you are touching the wires while connecting them, because of the fairly high amount of current being drawn to operate the electromagnets. Nothing major at all, but it may make you jump! )

First we will test the electromagnet assembly. I recommended to obtain a 4 wire egr harness from the junkyard for this step. It is possible to do this step without the wiring harness, but will be very time consuming, and frustrating, trying to get wires to stay on just the pins ..... However, if you must do it this way, i have provided a picture of the pins, and which pins correspond to which wire color:

The top two pins, sitting horizontally, from left to right, are blue and red.
The bottom two pins, sitting vertically, from top to bottom, are brown and pink.
If you are going to use this method, the bottom pin is the positive + (pink), and the top 3 pins are the 3 solenoids ground pins.


wayne's additional thoughts...  i wonder if the ECM actually pulses these like a fuel injector.. so it does not overheat the windings...

the heat transfer from a non seating pintle might transfer enough heat to the windings to damage them...

is the one that might have been stuck open.. the one with the 12 ohm reading??

[rooster]

nope.... its probably still in the work van..  i might have left it in the room and it got tossed... i am still missing a few personal tools that  got left in the van...   since he moved to hemet... i will have to wait for his return to la to get at them..

try not to melt it...

did you see the test i saw on the first link about testing the pull of the electro magnets that pull the pintles in...


Step 2: Testing

(Word of caution, just to prepare you. You may receive a VERY SMALL shock, if you are touching the wires while connecting them, because of the fairly high amount of current being drawn to operate the electromagnets. Nothing major at all, but it may make you jump! )

First we will test the electromagnet assembly. I recommended to obtain a 4 wire egr harness from the junkyard for this step. It is possible to do this step without the wiring harness, but will be very time consuming, and frustrating, trying to get wires to stay on just the pins ..... However, if you must do it this way, i have provided a picture of the pins, and which pins correspond to which wire color:

The top two pins, sitting horizontally, from left to right, are blue and red.
The bottom two pins, sitting vertically, from top to bottom, are brown and pink.
If you are going to use this method, the bottom pin is the positive + (pink), and the top 3 pins are the 3 solenoids ground pins.


wayne's additional thoughts...  i wonder if the ECM actually pulses these like a fuel injector.. so it does not overheat the windings...

the heat transfer from a non seating pintle might transfer enough heat to the windings to damage them...

is the one that might have been stuck open.. the one with the 12 ohm reading??

I did that test and it passed on all coils. (pict) I used 12 volt though!!

I got the assembly heated up and came up with 24.9, 25.0, 13.8. I dont know how hot it was but had to change hands carring it to the desk. Time to put it on a try it out.

That hair dryer looks like something out of war of the worlds.

[rooster]

It looks like I will have to get a gasket, small leak!
the test:

clear code
start eng, runs good
185 degrees , code po321 sets, runs bad


I think I'll try making a fuesed jumper and a additional fuse socket and place the amp reader in it. Chop the pink wire supplying the egr and connect the jumper.

[wayne petty]

there is a quick load test...

where you have a digital volt meter set to amps... or your amp tester in one leg of a circuit... and power the coil up for no more than about a count of 5 or 7... with direct battery voltage... looking at the change in amp draw...



bat+  ------- amp tester  --------  winding
bat neg      -------------------------------- the other coil connector

it's been a while since i learned this test... i think the amp draw should decrease as the windings heat up in that few seconds...

hold it for more that a few seconds and you can fry the windings...

this test i learned... was for testing fuel injector windings...

finding shorted windings that only short when under load...

[rooster]

I did the AMP draw on the EGR

eng cold
using jumper

Green     .06
Brown    .06
Red       1.00

eng hot
              .05
               .05
              .09


I think these numbers are ok! I took a jumper from each wire and gounded it to get the
numbers. Used the new tool.

Each one of those wires are at B+ with engine running, I think this means the coils are not
in operation and waiting for a command from computer! I thought this was odd that no
commands operated the coils at all.

Wouldent a cold eng call for egr to open and let hot exhause in when cold?

I'm going to remove green 32 plug from computer and check for voltage at those pins !

[wayne petty]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OTC-SYSTEM-2000-DIAGNOSTIC-TOOL-/230547665024?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item35adb63080#ht_500wt_1182


at 40 bucks.. this is a good deal...

i am not really sure it will work...  

i cannot remember... which connector you have...  the OBD1 with obd 1.5 software..

or the OBD2 with obd 1.5 software...


i am planning on picking up an OTC 3499N.. that displays both OBD1 and 2 live data...  abs and air bags... transmissions also i think...

the get just over 400 bucks for a brand new one... some places... i have not needed it yet...

do you have any friends with a Snap ON MT2500 . scan tool.. those will work... if it has the right cartridge and cables...

the OTC 4000 and OTC 4000E again with the proper cartridges and cables..

the OTC genesis... with again the proper cartridges and cables..

[rooster]

There was a deal on ebay last night for the autoxray and accesories but its gone now! Ill keep watching

I dont know what to do next with the olds. Weather is now starting to set in! Maybe the injector wiring.

The best clue I have is that 180 degrees water temp it throws a cam code and runs bad. That never varies!

[wayne petty]

see if it still throws the cards in with the EGR disconnected....

[rooster]

see if it still throws the cards in with the EGR disconnected....

Yes! po341

also p1650 qud2 fail
eng stumbled to stop at about 210 degrees




other readings:

ECT sensor
eng cold
5.032 @ harness connector ( key on only)


ECT sensor
eng cold
start eng
jumper across connector, sets po118 /range high, cooling fan does start!
key off
remove jumper, plug harness back in!
start eng
code gone

ECT yellow to ecm 0.4 ohm
ECT black   to emc 0.4 ohm

[wayne petty]

rooster just sent me an email to a few forums with similar cars with similar problems....


a picture is worth a thousand words....

these may not be his pictures...  but they are descriptive...






these seem to the be the ground connections for all the windows... rear defroster... and everything on the dash board or powered by the dash board...

i don't have a ground circuit diagram for these cars...


so in hindsite.. i guess i should have been telling him to use scotch taps and add new ground wires right at the circuits that are not responding as one would expect.... the other ends directly to ground...

a voltage drop test on the ground side of the circuit should have caught this...

digital volt meter set at 20 volts scale...    connect to ground connection at circuit...  to a known good body ground.. or with a LONG test wire... (15 foot test lead)  directly to the negative post and operate the circuit....    doing this with a MIN MAX setting on a better quality digital volt meter would also catch it.. as instead of 0.04 max voltage.. you might get over 0.5 volts.  thats half a volt..  but if the circuit is really bad...   you are going to get flashes of close to battery voltage when the ground opens up....

remember.. you are measuring the ground side..

you could do this same test with the digital volt meter in the DC amps range... and if you get any amp reading... when the circuit is active.. you have found the ground taking a short cut through your amp meter...

[wayne petty]

so... its kinda my fault for not supplying quite enough info for rooster to properly fix his ride..

and i had one of these cars kick my .....

and i could not fix it several years ago...  it went to the recycler..


but this was a really hidden problem