95 olds just dies

rooster · September 16, 2010, 08:36:27 PM

The wifes car is a 95 olds Cutless with a 3.1 V6 , lately it been dieing , maybe 3 times a
week. I thought it migh be a cloged fuel filter so I changed that and gave it a new set of
spark plugs . When the car dies it will usally start right back up, sometime it happens
when at idel at a stop sign, somethimes just going down the road. The service engine soon
light does not come on.

I think its fuel related because there is no light coming on in the dash.

The auto parts stores around here dont lone fuel testers out might have to get one off
ebay.
Any idea's on how to check this, or what the problem is.?

wayne petty · September 16, 2010, 10:40:59 PM

just curious... is the ALDL connector under the dash have square ends or angled ends...

this is an obd1 connector..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
angled ends is OBD2... and easier to find a scan tool for lately..

i would really think of swapping out the crank shaft position sensor..

and maybe the crank angle sensor.. sounds strange.. i don't recall seeing one of the crank angle sensors on earlier models...

here are the possible delco part numbers.. i am not hip why there are 2 delco crank position sensors listed... perhaps superceeded..

SENSOR,CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-148
Product Notes:
[Crank Shaft Position Sensor]; 2 blade term, side of block
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1994-1996
Vehicle List

SENSOR ASM-CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-234
Product Notes:
[Crank Shaft Position Sensor]; Behind balancer ; 4-Speed AT (M13)
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1994-1995
Vehicle List

SENSOR ASM,CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-4309
Product Notes:
[Engine Crankshaft Position Sensor]; On Side Of Block
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1995-1996

here are the AZ part numbers

Duralast/Crankshaft Position Sensor
Part Number: SU137
Price:$13.99
Warranty: 2 YR
Notes: In block; O.E.M. #10456043

Duralast/Crankshaft Position Sensor
Part Number: SU1050
Price:$39.99
Warranty: 2 YR
Notes:O.E.M. #10226176

one thing.. if you have a timing light.... stick it over a spark plug wire.. tape the trigger on... run the engine.. keep your hands on the fender.. while watching the flashing timing light...

if the light stops flashing before the engine stops turning.. the crank sensor is probably at fault... when it stops signaling the PCM it thinks the engine just stopped... it may not set a code..

a few things... does the engine slow down like you have not depressed the clutch.. so the engine cuggs to a stop at the stop light.. perhaps its the Torque converter clutch solenoid failing and keeping the TCC applied..

i would like to know how many idle air counts you get when you actually do get a scan tool plugged in... i like to see 20 to 50 with the engine at full temp and at idle... the throttle shaft bores wear and this throws the TPS signal off everytime you close your throttle.. this can make the car stall also...

rooster · September 17, 2010, 12:11:50 PM

just curious... is the ALDL connector under the dash have square ends or angled ends...

this is an obd1 connector..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
angled ends is OBD2... and easier to find a scan tool for lately..

Yes, it has the OBD1 connect, but it is considered OBD 1 !/2, 94 and 95 olds cant be jumped with a wire, scan tool is required. I haven't found anyone to scan the car , they all say they don't have the right connector or something. I believe port "B" is blank in the connector.

one thing.. if you have a timing light.... stick it over a spark plug wire.. tape the trigger on... run the engine.. keep your hands on the fender.. while watching the flashing timing light...

if the light stops flashing before the engine stops turning.. the crank sensor is probably at fault... when it stops signaling the PCM it thinks the engine just stopped... it may not set a code..

I would like to try this, but it only happens now and then! Ill try it anyway.

The car does not chug to a stop, Its like someone turned the key off.

A guy at the parts store suggested it might be the control mogul under the coil pack. Thats about a 100 dollar part, for the cheepie, 195 for the better one.

Looking in the book it appears the crank sencor is on the backside of the block.

The car has about 75 K on it.

Thanks for the input

wayne petty · September 17, 2010, 12:20:48 PM

crank sensors are a lot cheeper than the modules..
and more likely to fail...

use care when extracting it.. the tend to snap off leaving you threaded...

drill and a drywall screw can be used to extract the broken section if it snaps off..

rooster · September 17, 2010, 05:06:40 PM

I the car out this morning with in 2 miles of the house and the engine not up to operating temp it died, I was tooling along maybe 35mph, sliped the trans up into neutral started right up and contunied on.

Went to AZ and got a crank position sensor, about 14 bucks. The guy at AZ came out to hook up his scan tool then said he couldent do it being obd1.

When I got home I hooked up the timing light and started the engine, about fifteen minutes later the engine chuged alittle and stoped , the timing light flashed down to the last revelution. The engine temp at this time was around 210-215, the test was done at idel in the driveway.

Do you think I should still replace the crank sensor?

Another test I did was to hook a test light to the hot side of the 20 amp fuse in the fuse box, the light burned steady! So I dont think its the ign stw.

wayne petty · September 17, 2010, 06:13:03 PM

check your private messages...
i sent you the link to this on cl..

AutoXRay EZ-Read 2000 Scan Tool - $50 (University City)

Date: 2010-08-30, 11:54AM CDT

Have recently upgraded to a new scan tool, and no longer need this one. It's six years old and has been rarely used. It includes the case, manual, and four different cables:

OBD-I cables for Chrysler, Ford, and GM
OBD-II cable for all OBD-II compatible vehicles

Upgrades to this tool can be purchased from Autoxray's website - here is the product description:

FEATURES
* Supports multiple trouble codes: generic codes, pending codes, and enhanced codes
* On screen definitions of OBD-I trouble codes, OBD-II generic codes, and OBD-II manufacturer specific codes
* Reads and Displays supported emissions readiness monitor status
* Reset Check Engine Light

CONTENTS
* EZ2000 Code Reader
* GM OBD-I Cable
* Ford OBD-I Cable
* Chrysler OBD-I Cable
* OBD-II Cable
* Hard Carrying Case
* Users Manual

i had one of these.. worked great.. until a ford with a twisted up engine control harness blew it out.. i told the customer to not touch anything and get out of the car to help. he turned on the key to run the window up and fried my scanner..

Crosley.In.AZ · September 18, 2010, 12:35:40 AM

watch the wires to and from sensors too , if that has not been mentioned.

a co-worker replaced a Neon crank sensor and still had troubles till he pulled the covering off the wires. They were melted

Carnut · September 18, 2010, 01:10:24 AM

My vote will be for a bad TCC

rooster · September 18, 2010, 09:23:13 AM

Quote from: "Carnut"My vote will be for a bad TCC

I dont know dittley about TTC !

Wayne mentioned it early, I dont think the car feels like it chuging to a stop at all (like not pushing a clutch in on a stick shift) and this dieing happens just sitting in the driveway ideling in netual. I dont know if this makes a difference or not on weather it could kill the engine,( in gear or out of gear).

I do need to check the wires , in the past I have removed all the gounds along the raditor support and clean them up.

Last night I got a new battery for my pickup and she got my old one for the Olds , she had a 04 battery and the terminals were corroded. I thought this might be the problem. I cleaned both sides of the side terminal and the bolts and fired the Olds up , after ideling for 50 minutes it just droped dead, engine temp cycled from 200 to 225 twice.

Im waiting for a reply from a guy that has a scan tool for sale on CL, Wayne suggested to get

wayne petty · September 18, 2010, 11:23:14 AM

torque converter clutches when the TCC solenoid fails or gets plugged... will usually kill the motor when you drop it in gear ... or when you come to a stop... like you have not pushed the clutch pedal in on a stick shift..

this car does not sound after more info like the TCC solenoid is failing...

on cars that are doing weird things.. i normally jack up both front wheels... start the car.. put the trans in neutral.. take my foot off the brake.. drop the shifter into drive.. at that point the wheels are free to spin...

step on the brake to stop the wheels.. if it stalls the motor solidly... the TCC solenoid has failed...

there are two things in there to change.. the TCC solenoid.. and the pressure switch.. most Tcc solenoids come with connectors on them.. as a direct fit... some come with the wrong connectors and a pair of crimp terminals.. to splice the wires.. this is acceptable..

the TCC solenoid and pressure switch are in the side cover of the front wheel drive transmissions. 125C and 440T4... pick up a side cover gasket.. the pan gasket. and the new filter and fluid at the same time... 440s have the left Cv shaft through the side cover so there is a LOT more work to do .. both models usually involving supporting/hanging the engine and trans from above and dropping the suspension and crossmember..

this is what i use to hang the engine from... makes changing motor mounts and removing oil pans on rear wheel drive cars easier also
a really handy cheep useful tool.. don't have to worry about blocking up the motor with chunks of wood ever again...

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-engine-support-bar-96524.html

i know this is off thread.. but it does happen.. i have only seen a few time in 28 years.. the rear wheel drive gm transmissions have this problem..

wayne petty · September 18, 2010, 11:36:43 AM

oops.. i hope he still has it.. i just went back and looked.. that ad is 2 weeks old...

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=29&subAreaID=&query=scan+tool&catAbb=sss

here is an ad that just got posted...

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/1958391826.html

but i have never heard of this brand..

this one will work also.. but it is not cheeep..

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/1954004399.html

that is about 700 less than a single system referb unit.. and it one of the better scan tools... but a lot of money..

this would work also... same unit as above.. different label...
only 500 ..

the 50 buck one was 300 bucks to 399 new.. as i recall...

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/1941594300.html

rooster · September 18, 2010, 02:46:47 PM

Quote from: "wayne petty"just curious... is the ALDL connector under the dash have square ends or angled ends...

this is an obd1 connector..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
angled ends is OBD2... and easier to find a scan tool for lately..

i would really think of swapping out the crank shaft position sensor..

and maybe the crank angle sensor.. sounds strange.. i don't recall seeing one of the crank angle sensors on earlier models...

here are the possible delco part numbers.. i am not hip why there are 2 delco crank position sensors listed... perhaps superceeded..

SENSOR,CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-148
Product Notes:
[Crank Shaft Position Sensor]; 2 blade term, side of block
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1994-1996
Vehicle List

SENSOR ASM-CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-234
Product Notes:
[Crank Shaft Position Sensor]; Behind balancer ; 4-Speed AT (M13)
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1994-1995
Vehicle List

SENSOR ASM,CR/SHF POSN
Part Number: 213-4309
Product Notes:
[Engine Crankshaft Position Sensor]; On Side Of Block
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1995-1996

here are the AZ part numbers

Duralast/Crankshaft Position Sensor
Part Number: SU137
Price:$13.99
Warranty: 2 YR
Notes: In block; O.E.M. #10456043

Duralast/Crankshaft Position Sensor
Part Number: SU1050
Price:$39.99
Warranty: 2 YR
Notes:O.E.M. #10226176

one thing.. if you have a timing light.... stick it over a spark plug wire.. tape the trigger on... run the engine.. keep your hands on the fender.. while watching the flashing timing light...

if the light stops flashing before the engine stops turning.. the crank sensor is probably at fault... when it stops signaling the PCM it thinks the engine just stopped... it may not set a code..

a few things... does the engine slow down like you have not depressed the clutch.. so the engine cuggs to a stop at the stop light.. perhaps its the Torque converter clutch solenoid failing and keeping the TCC applied..

i would like to know how many idle air counts you get when you actually do get a scan tool plugged in... i like to see 20 to 50 with the engine at full temp and at idle... the throttle shaft bores wear and this throws the TPS signal off everytime you close your throttle.. this can make the car stall also...

O'Reillys auto parts loaned me the scanner to use in the parking lot it was a autoxray 2300 (i think) , I never used one of these before, I expected to see more than I did. On the screen of the scanner was text that read there were no codes set, That was all. There was no data like you posted in a picture above. The scan tool is for loan with a 250 doller deposit. Around here thay were the only ones that OBD! to offer.

I changed the battery last night , that probely deleted anything that was stored in the puter., but the engine has died several times today and not set off any severce engine soon lights.

The guy behind the counter said get the control moduel out and thay would test it at no charge.

I still havent heard anything from the guy on CL.

Im kinda stuck right ow because if I remove the control moduel I have no way to get it there to test, until the wife gets home from work tonight.

Later Rooster

wayne petty · September 18, 2010, 03:23:03 PM

its an expensive obd1 code reader.... glad you did not have to buy it to find out... it does show data for obd2...

http://www.autoxray.com/media/usermanuals/CP9140.pdf

still could be the crank sensor....

the stall and restart kinda points that way....

the cam sensor won't usually shut the motor off...

i have not run into info on the crank angle sensor thats behind the damper.. on other models that is a failure point also ...

so as a wild guess ... until code and or data can be gathered...

swapping a new crank position sensor...

and a new crank angle sensor... might just cure the problems..

the connectors to them could also be bad..

by the way... this is the engine control wiring diagram for the 3.1

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/06/80/d0/large/0900c152800680d0.gif

if you notice... there are 2 crank shaft position sensors..

one directly to the ignition module.. but its still wired through to the ECM through the module...

what and where everything is under the hood

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/06/7e/90/large/0900c15280067e90.gif

wayne petty · September 18, 2010, 04:29:53 PM

rooster · September 18, 2010, 05:47:32 PM

Thanks Wayne for all those links, its a cirra, vin m, forth diget A, so you got the right one.

I dont understand what all that stuff is but its a place to start.

I just glanced thought quickly and what I got was errors in the system set the light in the dash on and assume are recorded to memory then read by the user of the scan tool. Then you can look in that area for a fix.

In the case of the Olds no dash light comes on so I should expect no help from the computer.

I hitched a ride to the parts store and the tested the contol moduel twice, it read good. Now that I have it out im going to check the wiring . also replace a broken piece of vacume hose.

Later Rooster