Jeepster hitting but not running

[GPster]

Well I checked it today. The battery hasn't been disconnected since the last time it was run and the only code I got was 12 and no stored codes. The list of codes that this donor vehicle and engine could throw doesn't show much unless the vehicle is operating. If it starts and runs I don't know if it would tell me anything unless the vehicle was put in gear and you tried speed-up the engine. For now I think I'll just be content with the motor starting and running when I turn the key. I still don't have anything on the instrument panel. I was hoping that there would be some codes that would tell me that there was low oil pressure but it looks like that information only goes to the instrument. With the rear end of the Jeepster up in the air the transmission tends to "Freewheel". I have been starting the engine with the trans in park and shifting it out of park into any gear starts everything moving. I think I'll put the back brakes back together so I can slow that motion down. Of course the oil in the engine is the same oil that was in it10 years ago when I drove it out of the junkyard. I probably ought to change it. Maybe I'll change the trannnsmission fluid too. Maybe I can do things for awhile that I don't have to ask so many questions about. Thanks for all the help so far everyone. GPster

[kb426]

I understood that a 12 was good. It didn't mean there was a problem, just the diagnostics were active. Did I misunderstand that?

[GPster]

That is also my understanding. With the problems/changes that I've made with the wiring I am tickled that by indicating Code 12 that at least the computor has something to say and a way of saying it. The first suggestion in the directions about using the code reader was to make sure everything is in working order before you even plug the devise in.  I will have to back-track to get that done. I'll have to admitt that at the start it was easy to blame the computor for the fact that I couldn't get the motor to run. The problems that I found and corrected do not even appear in the 17 codes that this combo could throw at me. It runs and it's a long way from driveable but it's not as depressing. GPster

[tomslik]

IF you want to see if the computer is capable of setting codes, unplug something like the TPS ,fire it up and see if you can get the MIL (check eng) light to come on and then check the cdoes.

[GPster]

I'm still here but life gets in the way. MY NEIGHBOR HAS AN OLD TRUCK ('89 Chevy ?) that he uses on occasional jobs and he had it out the other day and it wouldn't start when he was done. A call to me for help, jumper cables and starting fuild didn't do it. A trip back to my garage and the only side post battery I have is the one in the Jeepster. That problem fixed but it's taken me til yesterday to resume. Turned the key with the code reader plugged in and I got the light on the dash but no code. The engine started just fine and run. Engine took gas with no problems so I let it run for a while ( the exhaust pipe got warm and melted the insulation on the cord of my trouble light and blew a fuse in my garage wiring). I'm overcome with things not hooked up on this project so I think I'll get back to an assembly mode for a while so my questions might be on a different subject. Which way do you suggest for the transmission?  It's a 700R and the detent cable is frayed. I have a replacement cable that you start off with adjusting it to the length of the old one. That means getting the old one out. All the instructions (even Sumner's) tell you how to adjust them at the carb or TBI and I haven't seen anything about getting the other end disconnected at the transmission. I had planned on treating the transmission to a filter and fluid change but the suggestion in Haynes is to drive the vehicle and get the fluid warm before the change. I'd rather not wait for the detent cable change but I'd like for the filter/fluid change to be most effective. Do I drop the trans pan twice for cable change now and filter/fluid change later, do both jobs now or can you get the cable changed in the trans with only access from the top with the pan still on? That's enough for now. GPster

[GPster]

Well my diary is not helping.  Got the brake light switch in but it involved pulling the brake pedal assembly out, along with everything that has been installed since I put them in the first time. While I had the instrument panel out I found the printed circuit board repair had parted so I had that fixed too. The directional light indicators work and the high beam indicator too. I'm still having trouble with the gauges though. I checked the bulbs and even though I had cut the number of bulbs that I needed down to 14  I had to buy 9 new bulbs. I'm going to be working on the wiring under the dash til I get it right because it's easier to do with out there being a floor in the body and the lack of door sills.  During the work on the ECM , the distributor and the TBI Wayne pointed me to a manual that explained each component and how the electric power operated it and how it changed the electric. I sure could use that type of instructions for the alternator and it's indicator light. Everything I see on these 3 wire alternators says they need to have a hot wire to them and they even suggest a jumper wire from the battery charge terminal. The other wire is switched by the key and the indicator light is in that line and it doesn't come on because it is being feed by + on both sides. The wiring diagram doesn't show a constant 12V to one side and it doesn't show voltage there and the other wire doesn't show power being switched with the key but it is. The diagram shows the wires on the alternator, their color and going to the instrument panel and the wire at the panel, their colors and going to the alternator. Any wire going through the firewall bulkhead and behind the fuse panel is not shown very well.  The Auto Zone diagram that Wayne re-worked for me doesn't show me any different. The factory's explanations on the other components was understandable. I sure would like to see that kind of explanation for the instruments and trouble lights.  GPster

[wayne petty]

GM 10SI and other SI style alternators have a creative turn on circuit..


and if you got the other manuals i linked... the charging system is explained completely in them.. but lets go at it.


somewhere on the ignition switch.. sometimes the Pink IGN1 wire.. sometimes the brown ACC wire.. power goes thru to the instrument cluster..  it also goes to one side of the alternator light..    this goes down to the back of the alternator terminal 1..  

when the engine starts the regulator sees the tiny amount of current coming down the wire to terminal 1.  this turns on the regulator to start pulsing current to the rotor.  starts the alternator charging..

when the key is on.. the electronics in the voltage regulator pull the terminal 1 low...  electrons flow from ground thru the bulb to the dash 12V+ . this lights up the bulb..

when the alternator starts charging..  the regular allows terminal 1 to come up to output voltage..  this equals the voltage coming from the ignition switch.. and the lamp goes dark..

if you have a loose belt... corrosion or resistance somewhere between the alternator output and the ignition switch side of the bulb ..

or on the  negative side between alternator case.. the bracket.. the engine block..and the negative cable to the battery or the braided cable from the head to the firewall.   These can make the alternator light glow dimly..

the diagnosis is not hard...  Bookmark this link.... http://i.imgur.com/Mo57rdb.jpg     get some copies printed... keep them around..   it took me a long time to come up with that exact sequence.. and those results if it is going to pass the test..

that is only the first step in the diagnostics of the major cables under the hood.. takes less than 5 minutes... i can do the first 4 tests in under a minute..    test 5 is hard to do on some cars earlier than 1996.... must find a positive distribution point where the power heads into the harness and into the bulk head connector. . terminal block on a firewall..  on fords its easy.. the starter relay on the inner fender..

test 6 is impossible or almost impossible on some cars.


oh.. back to the alternator terminal 2 .. the SENSE terminal... that can be jumped straight to the output terminal on the back of the alternator.   let me explain a few more things..

on Many GM applications.. the Alternator output 10 gauge wire goes to thru usually a 14 gauge fusible link to the top post on the starter..    this output wire also feeds thru the bulk head connector to the ignition switch B1 and B2... sometimes B3..

there is a second circuit coming off the starter also with a 14 gauge fusible link.  this branches off and goes up to the #2 terminal on the alternator.. but also thru the bulkhead connector to the B terminal on the headlight switch.  the B terminal on the headlight switch has a circuit breaker inside the headlight switch..  this allows your headlights and a few of the other lighting fuses to be separated from the charging system...

now... a HUGE SUPRISE..  ever noticed that GM trucks and a few cars have an amp meter that almost never works.

recall that the 2 battery wires thru the bulk head connector.. one to the ignition switch B1 B2..  and the other to the headlight switch B1..  GM used a branch circuit off those to each side of an amp meter..  using the voltage drop thru the wiring and fusible links to move the amp meter needle.

guess what... wayne to the rescue... invest in a second connector for the side of the alternator..  on the #1 wire. splice in a side marker pigtail that uses a 194 bulb..  put a gator clip to the other wire from the side marker socket..   hook a second gator to the #2 wire end.. clip that to the alternator output post also..  or hook the second side marker wire to the #2 wire so they both clip on to the output stud...   now you can test the 10SI alternator output totally separate from the rest of the wiring of the car..  you still have to perform the six steps of the voltage drop test .. to prove the wiring is properly done..


i have probably confused everybody..   hopefully you will get some http://i.imgur.com/4kt8xz1.jpg traction out of this..

if not... i may have my friend bring his car over and blow your pictures off the wall with the exhaust.. http://i.imgur.com/wVcFOVG.jpg

[GPster]

Wayne, the first part of your explanation was what I had in mind for the type of explanation I need. It's a shame that I have only just started my second cup of coffee and my doctor has told me to redice my fluid intake so it will be a while till I can put it to memory. I had gone back to the sites you had given me but I could not get back to anything as general as the alternator or instruments. I am working with stock wires and components but maybe I need to enlarge my enlargements and get out my colored markers . A continued THANKS! GPster

[wayne petty]

http://i.imgur.com/4dABT1e.jpg   this gave me nightmares..  i printed that out.. it was over 9 feet long..  hung it on the wall beside the car... with individual clippings i printed and colorized..  

zoom in.. look at the wire colors i added... look at the initials for the wire colors written in italian..  V for Verde..  B for Blanco.. H for Grizo ..

had to verify 90% of the wires on that with my volt meter... unhooked every switch.. took it apart.. all needed contact burnishing..

i was looking for a short in the system.  that kept burning the relays in the top row up..  and undoing whack a mole repositioning of the wires to every switch ... and probably 90% of the fuse box wiring.. plus made up new pigtails and spliced them in for the relays.. there were only 3 that needed to be done there..

the short turned out to be where one high beam headlight hooked up. it has cibie headlights. only one terminal for positive.. somebody added a ground wire.. somebody else hooked them up backwards..  Cibie headlights have a grounded shell tab.  so everytime the high beams were turned on... the relays under the dash would start melting.

when i got to it.. only the left parking and side marker worked.  it had gone to specialists... nobody could fix it..  right now.. everything works... except.. i need to fix a fuel leak that requires pulling the rear suspension.. with 4 slot nuts on it.. that i have to make a socket for..  actually 2 sockets..  2 sizes.. http://i.imgur.com/y5Ga5ju.jpg  not my handy work with a hammer and chisel there.. i think that is probably locktite i will be dealing with also.. http://i.imgur.com/n0Pq4ka.jpg

got to go..

alternator output to starter top or battery positive..

1 wire to dashboard bulb...   dash bulb to ign 1 or 3...

2 wire to starter or battery positive or alternator output.


Negative connections..    battery negative to engine...   battery negative to body..  engine to fire wall with a braided ground strap..

[GPster]

Wayne, your explanation of the alternator's regulator put my mind at ease. The simplified wiring that I've seen with a 12V+ jumper wire had me thinking that adding a jumper wire to the circuit that I have would make a situation where the lamp would always have positive voltage to both sides of the bulb.  I have been putting your explanation of GM wiring over the years with the wires I have  identified and how the power is going. My pink ignition wire from the switch feeds the ignition/gauge fuse and puts power to the A strip in the fuse block. That powers the Pnk/Blk wire to 1 on the alternator and another Pnk/Blk which is the common 12V+ to the instrument panel for the alternator light plus the other trouble lights and power to the gauges. The Brn 2 alternator wire goes to the other side of the alternator "TROUBLE" light. I don't dispute the importance of the connection/ground check but it will wait until I get the headlights wired. As I continue GPster

[GPster]

Well I've been verifying all the wire to my instrument panel, where they come from ,where they are going, if they have power when they are supposed to and if they are off when they are supposed to be. Because I have a supply of old amp gauges, I wired one in the line between the alternator's output and the terminal block. I started up the Jeepster's engine and it only showed a 15 amp charge. Maybe the alternator is not working. While walking away from it (in disgust) I thought maybe I could jump from the alternator output and the #3 brown wire on the alternator's regulator and see if that makes any difference. Maybe later. Maybe I should start building the floor and door sills in the body. At least when I drop something it won't fall clear through. GPster

[GPster]

Well, it's proceeding but slowly. With the wires straightened out I came across an interesting fact. There are two more wires on the plug to the instrument panel than the wiring diagram calls for. They went into spaces that the wiring diagram calls empty. They are more Pnk/Blk wires like the wires that are supposed to be from the alternator #1 and they come from the mess under the fuse panel. The instrument pane diagram shows the Pnk/Blk wire coming into the panel is switched positive and it is the power for all the instruments but none of the instruments worked. I tied the two extra wires together with the other and now my oil pressure and coolant temperature gauges react. Unfortunately my battery voltage gauge is still not working. There is only one more wire accounted for, it's Yel and my wiring diagram says it is from the Conv Cnt and it's ground coming from the seat belts and door locks to ground the dash light indicator. It shows that it's only the ground for that light and it would only be a ground if one of those switches was made so I can't think that the voltage gauge would only work if the seat belts weren't fastened. I know there is ground to the instrument panel because the high beam and directional light indicators work. There is + to the panel now cause the gauges work so I would think that what the voltage gauge must be looking for is a -. This is about as far as my Boy Scout understanding of DC voltage will take me. This might have to wait until I pull the instrument panel again. The wiring diagram does not give you a correct picture of what the printed circuit board does/needs. GPster

[wayne petty]

Well, it's proceeding but slowly. With the wires straightened out I came across an interesting fact. There are two more wires on the plug to the instrument panel than the wiring diagram calls for. They went into spaces that the wiring diagram calls empty. They are more Pnk/Blk wires like the wires that are supposed to be from the alternator #1 and they come from the mess under the fuse panel. The instrument pane diagram shows the Pnk/Blk wire coming into the panel is switched positive and it is the power for all the instruments but none of the instruments worked. I tied the two extra wires together with the other and now my oil pressure and coolant temperature gauges react. Unfortunately my battery voltage gauge is still not working. There is only one more wire accounted for, it's Yel and my wiring diagram says it is from the Conv Cnt and it's ground coming from the seat belts and door locks to ground the dash light indicator. It shows that it's only the ground for that light and it would only be a ground if one of those switches was made so I can't think that the voltage gauge would only work if the seat belts weren't fastened. I know there is ground to the instrument panel because the high beam and directional light indicators work. There is + to the panel now cause the gauges work so I would think that what the voltage gauge must be looking for is a -. This is about as far as my Boy Scout understanding of DC voltage will take me. This might have to wait until I pull the instrument panel again. The wiring diagram does not give you a correct picture of what the printed circuit board does/needs. GPster

don't forget .. that there are 2 completely sometimes 3 completely different ways to connect the gauge clusters...

the idiot light and the full gauge versions have different positions in the connector that plugs into the printed circuit..

i will have to go thru the wiring diagrams i have...  if you want.. you could photograph the front of the cluster and the back..  post them..  post pictures of both sides of the pigtail connectors so i can see the  wire colors going into the back of the plug..

pink is almost always switched 12 volt..

light blue /dark blue are left and right turn signals

dark blue can also be oil pressure

green is the engine temp..

tan could be the fuel gauge..

brown could be the alternator..

Grey should be the indicator lamps from the cluster illum fuse..  variable brightness circuit..

in looking at the 2 wiring diagrams... i see one connector that is missing a wire in position 13.

the other missing a wire in positions 1, 9 and 10  they in a quick look at wired up very differently..

it will take me a while to dig out the printed manual and read the tiny print.. the online versions are blurry at this zoom..  somebody scanned them at too low a resolution..

[GPster]

..

pink is almost always switched 12 volt..

light blue /dark blue are left and right turn signals

dark blue can also be oil pressure

green is the engine temp..

tan could be the fuel gauge..

brown could be the alternator..

Grey should be the indicator lamps from the cluster illum fuse..  variable brightness circuit.. .

Your understanding of the colors is what urged me to try power to those terminals. I am working from factory wiring diagrams that you helped me obtain. All of the wires are as factory installed and I am working from the diagram that applies. I have the instrument cluster (w/gauges) and the thing was that the diagram doesn't show wires on 3 or 12 but these wires were factory installed and apparently necessary.  Since my post I have looked on the S10 Forum and GMC Truck Forum and both are saying that these voltmeters are prone to failure and the common feeling seems to be to install an aftermarket gauge under the dash. The next time I have the instrument cluster out I'll try to track the printed circuit board to the gauge and make sure it's not parted somewhere. It's only two tracks and I thiink everything else is working. Time to start building door sills GPster

[wayne petty]

hmm..

http://imgur.com/a/COU4w


i cannot find my S10 manual .. its around here someplace..

but which box..

i have a friend with one.. i might ask her to take close ups... see if they are better..