Middle Jeep questions / problems

GPster · August 18, 2011, 10:10:25 AM

First the data. This is a 1980 jeep CJ7 the engine is the big 258 cu in 6 with the 2 barrel carb. This Jeep has the auto transmission (Torqueflite with Quadratrack) and power steering. The air injecter pump is gone and I don't believe it ever had a catalytic converter on it. The distributor is electronic with a remotly mounted module (stock). It will not start if it's been sitting a couple of days without a shot of either in the air cleaner and then it hits right away. After it's been running it will start imediatly with no pumping and with either even cold it fires imediatly If it doesn't start imediately then no amount of pumping the gas or choking (manual now) will get even a hit out of it. Just yesterday I happened onto a discovery. If I don,t catch the initial "hit" when starting (like to give it gas when it fires because I reached in the door to turn the key, the neutral safety switch works now) if I turn the key clear off and try again from the off position I'll get the initial fire again. The initial fire seem to come only when proceeding from an off key and if I miss that initial fire then I will continue to grind with what seems like no ignition. Is this a problem of a failing Module (Motocraft?)? The wiring diagram shows a resistance wire between the Module and the coil but the coil has a wire from the starter solenoid too. I haven't had a chance to check if there's power from the solenoid to the coil when starting/cranking as my arms aren't long enough. I may be trying to start with only the power to the coil through the resistance wire. I could see that on the first time because the initial power through the wire would be full voltage but I would think that subsequent tries would be at reduced voltage but turning the key off and on again seems to make it hit. When it starts it seems to run well and idle fine with good oil pressure and doesn't overheat but I'd like to take it out without either for it or for me. GPster

wayne petty · August 18, 2011, 10:36:36 AM

It will not start if it's been sitting a couple of days without a shot of either in the air cleaner and then it hits right away. After it's been running it will start imediatly with no pumping and with either even cold it fires imediatly If it doesn't start imediately then no amount of pumping the gas or choking (manual now) will get even a hit out of it.

first place to start... quite literally..

got a timing light...

got a test light (circuit tester)

tape the trigger in the on position of the timing light.. hook the clamp over the coil wire so you will see every spark created by the coil.. aim it at the windshield... hang it under the wiper.. so you can see the flash...

do you get spark every time you attempt to start it???

##########

with the test light... find the positive side of the coil.... hook the test light to that.. ground the other end.. fix it even if you have to put the clip end on the positive side of the coil and wedge the probe into someplace to ground it so you can see the light bulb from the drivers seat...

work the ignition switch slowly from off to ON to CRANK .. then back to ON .. then slowly off..

there have been worn contacts inside the ignition switches that drive people crazy...

wayne petty · August 18, 2011, 10:54:16 AM

if you are having intermittent flashing from the ignition coil...

lets look at the ignition system...

do you have a digital volt meter... if so.. set it to 2K Ohms... (2,000 ohms)

this is the pick up coil.... unplug the connector....

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/F108/image/4/

inside the connector you will see 3 terminals...

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/wl2/F108/10/image/4/

two parallel and one horizontal... hook up the test leads to the vertical terminals.. (purple and orange usually) 500 to 1,500 ohms... is expected.. every one i have ohms is around 860 to 900 ohms..

if it passes the OHM test... flip the meter to 20 volt AC .. have somebody crank the engine.. or if the distributer is out.. spin the shaft.. you need to see close to 1.0 Volt AC...

why.. the power transistor turns on when it sees the ac signal go above 0.3 volts positive to activate the power transistor to charge the primary side of the coil.. when the voltage raises then lowers to 0 and starts to go negative.. the power transistor breaks the connection to ground and discharges the coil..

so.. if is passes the resistance test.. but not the AC voltage test.. replace the reluctor.. retest... bet you have a LOT of ac voltage then..

this is the reluctor...

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/F106/image/4/

at AZ F106... in duralast or wells please NOTE which side the tiny roll pin is on when installed.. as there are usually two locations for it.. ignition timing and rotor phasing will be effected..

the reluctor can fail.. its weird.. it will keep a small magnetic field when it passes by a strong magnet.. when it fails.. it just won't hold as much magnetic field and that does not break the pick up coil windings with enough magnetic lines of force to create close to 1.0 Volts AC to trigger the ignition module.. no turn on signal. it won't be able to turn it off to discharge the coil.. no spark.. no run.. no joy as you have been defeated and frustrated by the failure of a SOLID device that works with invisible force...

may the force be with you...

continuing

set the digital ohm meter to 200 ohms and measure the horizontal terminal (black wire) to the body of the distributer.. you should have close to 0 resistance..
the horizontal one grounds the ignition module to the distributer housing.. its connected via the harness strain relief screw...

wayne petty · August 18, 2011, 11:01:49 AM

one last thing to check for now...

how hard is it to get the air filter off the top of the carb so you can see down the throat...

if you can get it off before a cold start... look straight down it while holding the choke blade open... work the throttle lever slightly.. make sure that you get pump shot from the booster assembly..

this is a ford version.. the carter is smaller... but this will give you an idea..

i have found several carbs with clogged pump discharge nozzles..

i have also run into them with bad accelerator pump seals.. non sealing check balls ...

#############

if you have one of the fuel pump vacuum tester gauges.. test the fuel pressure... see if it holds pressure when its not cranking..

while you have it off... extend the fuel line into a clear plastic bottle.. have somebody crank the engine for 10 to 15 seconds.. do you get nice full pulses... not smaller and smaller till it just dribbles.. .

the check valves in the fuel pumps have gotten Red dUST in them from the tank and lines and fail to hold pressure and let the fuel drain all the way back to the tank when the engine is not running.. cars that start and run for 10 seconds, stall, then need to crank another 30 seconds to get started have this problem.. magnets in the fuel tank... fuel filters before the fuel pump so the pump gets filtered fuel ... doing the full flow test after installing the new filter before the pump can clean the check valves..

you can also use a magnet on the clear bottle full of gas from the test to see if there is any Red dUST in it..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

these tests should take about 30 minutes to an hour to do....

i hope that a lot of people print these three sections and hang them on a wall to review them once in a while....

wayne petty · August 18, 2011, 12:08:11 PM

oh.. buy the way. that model uses a conventional "blue grommet" duraspark ignition module...

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/wl2/F102/14/image/4/

they come in very handy when upgrading older fords..

let me describe the wire colors..

green goes to the negative side of the coil.
black is the ground.. usually from the distributer housing..
orange and purple are from the pick up coil windings..
red is ignition power when the key is in the run and crank position
white is from the starter relay I terminal.. send power to that .. ignition retard 10 degrees for easy starting..

there is sometimes a resistor in the red wire.. as its hooked to the coil positive also.. that resistor if you look carefully.. may protect the on board computer.. if its on the negative side of the coil and leading back into the harness.. other apps have the resistor reducing power to the coil .. i will have to study the wiring diagram for the Cj7.. if you are having problems.. i think that was covered above..

there are several web sites out there that show how to remove the rivet on the grommet.. heat the top with a hot air gun or propane torch to loosen the potting to get the guts out of this...

replace the aftermarket or ford electronics with a 4 pin delco ignition module..

yes. you loose the 10 degree retard... but you get a factory looking part.. that has a better track record for long life...

B to the red wire.
C to the green wire
purple and orange to the 2 small connectors on the other end.. phasing is important..
and black.. has to be connected to the case via one of the module hold down screws..

but.. there is little need for this mod... unless one has repeated failures..

i think that MSD also makes a direct fit plug in module for this blue grommet duraspark module..

GPster · August 18, 2011, 01:15:38 PM

Thank you for the fast suggestions, Wayne. This is the weekend that we are celebrating a grand daughter's birthday and in 19 minutes I'm leaving for four days and a doctor's appointment on Monday. I'll mull over your suggestions and any others that come in on a lap top but I'll have no results until Tuesday at the earliest. I've been mulling over the problem for days but today I could only find the time to ask. GPster

GPster · August 19, 2011, 02:56:51 PM

Well, I borrowed my daughter's library card and I'm on the Kent, Ohio's Public Library's computor. This is the first time I've been able to read the instructions with-out being overwhelmed (TBI at work). Thanks for the suggestions on how to trouble shoot when working by yourself. I mentioned to my wife one time that I wanted something simple like a Jeep to work on. What I meant at the time was a retired Postal Jeep with a four cylinder Chevy engine and a powerglide transmission. When I bought this thing I bought plates for it to nail down my personal plates (GPSTER) and I've already had to renew them so I wouldn't lose the persoal plate but it hasn't even been out of the back yard yet. Oh well, I'm a 140 miles from it now. GPster

GPster · August 22, 2011, 10:01:03 PM

Well I started in the middle of the list. The fuel pump pumps up to 7+ psi and holds. Gas in a jar had no red cast or red junk in it. I couldn't be sure about how clean the jar was so I did it twice and the second time showed nothing so the jar must have been dirty. The possibility of dirt got me to wondering about the filter and even though it was fresh looking I checked. It is a filter with a second outlet on it and I checked my book to see where it went (for the idea of eliminating it) and there was a warning that the extra outlet should be on the top. It wasn't so the filter would have been drainig between run times. I plugged that extra line and put on a clear plastic 2 line filter so I could see if there was any dirt coming. in the future. There is no accelerator pump shot to the carb so I guess I'll be looking for a kit tomorrow. On the module the white wire is light blue and it doubles at the terminal conections at the firewall one to the module and one to the starter solenoid. Maybe the pump shot from the carb is most of the problem. I'll work on that while I'm trying to figure out my timing light. GPster

wayne petty · August 22, 2011, 10:15:38 PM

the BBD carbs have a pair of plastic bell cranks on the pump lever shaft..

the height setting is critical on both...

Carter model BBD Carburetor #8253, 8254, 8255, 8256, 8257, 8277 possibly more..

one plastic piece holds the pump UP ... the other lifts the metering rod hanger as you open the throttle...

get either adjustment wrong.. or if the plastic bits are broken .. you will have major problem..

look in the jeep manual i linked for you a while back.. see if the carb is listed..

ahh!!! video of the pump cam..

&feature=related

PLEASE .. if its got a solenoid on the back... DO NOT SPRAY carb cleaner or brake cleaner into the carb throat.. the plastic in the mixture/air bleed solenoid will melt and stick closed forcing the carb full rich.. your car might be too early for this solenoid on the back.. but perhaps others will learn from it..

what the part does.. it is computer operated and changes the amount of air getting to the air bleeds.. closed is full rich.. 50% on time is half way.. open all the time is full lean.. it bounces between 10 percent closed time and 90 percent closed time..

let me see what i can find to help you...

this is a 40 page pdf that will help you a LOT....

http://u225.torque.net/cars/SL6/docs/BBD_Manuals.pdf

i just went through this file... everybody should download a copy for their records.. a great compilation.. not just the service manual.. but the training manual also...

last but not least.. is the AZ site..

this one popped up.. and is for the bbd's on the dodge vans... same theory..

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairguides/Chrysler-Full-Size-Vans-1967-1988-Repair-Guide/Carbureted-Fuel-System/Carter-BBD/_/P-0900c1528007fd4d

wayne petty · August 22, 2011, 10:44:45 PM

to cap the bat..

how about the instructions.. before you open the box..

http://www.carbkitsource.com/manuals/instructions/tech/Carter/BBD/BBD%20latepdf.pdf

only 4 pages but a slow download...

GPster · August 28, 2011, 01:35:23 PM

Got the carb off and got into it slowly by your suggestion. The little metal tag was gone so there's no positive way to know on the adjustments but being this isn't California and most of the smog stuff is gome I'll just "wing" it. With the tag gone I figured that it had been gone into before, that's an understatement. One of the metering rods was bent but I can probably match the bends to the other one. The of the cams on the accelerator shaft was buggered but the best I can tell it doesn't have a purpose and it's probably from the bent metering rod. Going further the accelerator pump seal was ripped like it had been put in sideways and the cover caught it on reassembly but that check ball was in place. I took that as a positive sign so off to Advance to order a kit and over-night delivery would have it here this morning. Now the problem. Spent a little time this morning taking it further apart. Went to the venturi cluster assembly to look for the second check ball. One of the screws was broken. The broken piece was easily enough removed but because part of the flow goes through the center of this screw I'll either have to find a like replacement or have to figure out a way to fasten the two halves together (silver solder braze?). Oh, of course the check ball was missing. I figure the "Kit" might have the clip that's missing from the end of one of the linkage rods but the missing check ball and a replacement for the screw would be pushing it. So I can get a "Kit" overnight but I'm probably be weeks finding the missing parts. So that's the latest. GPster

enjenjo · August 28, 2011, 03:12:06 PM

Having some experience with this setup, there are several sensors and controls for this system that are no longer available new, and impossible to find used. Earlier Jeeps used the same basic carburetor, without the electronics, but the linkage is set up differently. I have used the later throttle body, with the earlier carb body, to make a replacement that bolts on, but does not have the electronic components. I'll look and see if I have a carb you can rob the screw and other parts you need.

GPster · August 28, 2011, 05:00:12 PM

There's no electronics on this carb and none in the Jeep I believe. '80 seem to stand alone and the majority of it seems to be like the '77 to '79. There was suppose to be a circut for a carb and an engine heater but all of that has been removed. there is also an arrangement for the vacuum advance to the distributor to be limited depending on engine temperature but only half of the componets for that seem to be there so that will go the same way. Believe it or not the "Kit" included the two check balls and I'm going to try repairing that screw. I have a drill bit the size of the internal gallery to hold the two pieces of the screw in line. I'm hoping if I clamp the drill bit in my vise that it will form a heat sink to keep the bit from becoming part of the assembley. The application guide for the "Kit" shows that carb being used not only in Jeeps from '77 to '86 but also in AMC and Chrysle products from the mid '70s til almost the '90s 0n 225s and 318s so I may be visiting "Junk engine piles" if that screw becomes part of the assembley. I'm alternating projects because my disgust level on any one of them seems to be about one hour. GPster

wayne petty · August 28, 2011, 06:55:15 PM

i am almost sure that i have a core carb... that the plastic cams were cobbled with hose clamps....

drop me a PM with an address.. i will see about mailing you either the whole thing or just the parts you need...

i might also have a new pair of pump shaft cams... for that.. i just don't know where they are stored in my maze of stuff...

or you might be able to get them direct.... there are also a few parts stores and online vendors that sell the various parts individually...

https://buy.walkerproducts.com/carburetor/components/carter/carter-2bbl-bbd-1-carburetor-components.html

most carb rebuilders keep these in stock...

you will need an 85-188

and an 85-182

hopefully you have the proper screws for the shaft and the concave square washers to clamp down on these plastic parts...

these guys are totally insane..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Carter-BBD-Pump-Arm-111-120-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ120345764441QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

worst part.. thats only half of what you need....

i guess i will have to start digging for my white plastic case that i kept those in....

this is the other part...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Carter-BBD-Metering-Rod-Arm-111-126-/120345760782?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c052a940e#ht_1495wt_818

GPster · August 28, 2011, 08:57:40 PM

The 85-182 part is what I question. The half-round arm that is on the opposite side of the arms that work the metering rod holder is buggered up some. I can't see anything that that arm is supposed to work. It almost looks like it is suppose to have a spring under it but no parts diagram shows any parts that I can't account for. The screws and holders for those cams appear to be in good shape. It all appears to never had been messed with like he left the top intact and just went into the float chamber and didn't get the metering rod in place when he slammed it back together. If you come accross these carbs when unlaoding your Econoline or VW van for disposal take note of their location. Like I said I can only remain concentrated on a project for a short period of time. I've spent more time typing about it than working on it. Thanks for following this because you help keep me out of the disgust stage. GPster