Messages

Some of these kids are using bodys that we threw out years ago because they were too rough compared to what was then available.  I admiore that aspect of this nich of the automotive hobby.

But take a closer look at them--they're built too low to the ground to be safe...(scrub lines)...and missing good brakes.  Welds are suspect also.

I think, personally speaking, that the chassis is everything--you have to be able to steer and stop safely.
And use a good safe design.

A fellow I met last year lost his Corvette to a fire, a 1968 model.  After the insurance company compensated him for his loss, he put a roadsterized 29 coupe body on it with the back section from a 27 T coupe and he calls it a Rat Rod.

His has good brakes and 4 wheel independant suspension.

And a very ratty looking body....

Mark,

I honestly don't remember the gear ratio...it's on my list to pull the rear cover and count before I put lube in. I'll let you know. If you want to come up for a visit I always have diet Coke or others in the fridge. I'm retired so although time is at a premium I'm available almost any time.

If you are interested in a 153 I have a couple rebuildable cores in various stages of disassembly (spares - ya know?).

George - thanks for bringing up the prior thread.

I'm still messing with things. Think I found the cause of the transition from crappy idle to high rpm. Also found a water leak in that a couple valve cover holes went into the water jacket, Interestingly I found all the bolt holes were helicoiled. I put studs in but then found I couldn't get a socket on the nuts on the pass. side. Back to studs in the two leaky holes and screws in the others. The  valve cover was warped a bit so I did the gasket and heavy silicone bead thing this morning to hopefully cure that. I have a few other little jobs to do so I won't try to fire it again until tomorrow so that the silicone can set up completely.

Just seems to be an unusual amount of tinker work still.

Charlie

Charlie:

During "the college days" my cousin Tommy John picked up for cheap a US Post Office Jeep Dispatcher...it had a Nova engine, I forget if it was a 151 or a 153...Powerglide and a posi type rear end.  I really wanted to get it for one of the Model A's, but he wouldn't sell it to family.  So this was about in '78 or 9 that he got rid of it.  I ended up with a Pinto 2.0 swap....after I put #3 rod thru the side, a stocker 29 engine.   I know that a early Ford trans fits a Nova type engine with a bell housing adapter and the right clutch parts.  I always thought that was a good way to go, but never found an engine to do the deed with.

I'm retired too, disabled, due to a stroke 5 years ago.  I just might set the compass North someday and stop over for a visit.  Right now I'm trying to get some junk "organized" before my girlfriend has her own Model A ford swap meet...

Thanks for the link George....it was good reading...

Mark aka Abonecoupe31

Harold Ehle of Windsor Fabrications, in Battle Creek, MI sells a complete bear claw latch setup for Model A's that uses a tiny bear claw.  That is the problem with bear claws, trying to find a small enough one to fit in the A door without getting in the way of the glass.  

Hope this helps.

Mark

The wooden crate lumber story is factual.

My grandfather Harry, and his brother, my uncle Walt, bought a new 1914 Model T that was  totaled with about 3 miles on her for $25.  The guy that bought it got a belly full of beer at the tavern, celebrating the purchase of his first new Ford, and got hung up on the Inter Urban tracks in Grand Rapids, MI.  He lost the dual with the electric train, and got the steering column shoved thru his chest, dying instantly.  Walt saw the car on the wrecker's boom being towed to the scrap yard, and flagged the driver down, and had it delivered home, after stopping by the place where my grandfather worked and getting the $10 he was short for the purchase.

They ordered a new body from the dealer in Grand Rapids, Universal Ford, and in a few weeks it arrived on a flat car at the railroad station.  They took the body out of the box and saved the crate, where Walt cut it to fit using the templates provided, using the band saw at the furniture factory where he was employed.

Believe it or not, after 14 years of service, they buried this car behind their house, to fill in a low spot in the yard.  (Harry bought an Essex sedan)  It was still a running, servicable car.  But T's weren't worth anything then.  It's still there.  I always wondered how much of it is still intact.  They also buried a Star touring car, which is missing the ring and pinion gears.  The guy spent the entire afternoon removing the parts, only to find out it was in worse condition than his gear set.

I've still got my uncle Walt's valve grinder they used on the T.

Well, guys...in spite of all the brain farts I did coerce the little monster into running.  Was starting to think I was gonna have to administer a severe tire iron beating. Not a great experience but okay. It either idles crappy or buzzes right upstairs where it sounds really wicked. Tach isn't working but I'm guessing 4 grand. Poor initial adjustments I believe.

So, I gave up for today to do more Weber DCOE sidedraft carb tuning research.  I printed out a lot of good stuff. I never did get good info from Clifforf 6+8 on how these carbs are set up out of the box so I may have to disassemble one or both and take notes. In for a penny, in for a pound I guess.

I'm optimistic. When you guys come over to administer the beatings bring beer!

Charlie

I'm just down the lakeshore from you, (east of Douglas)...I'm diabetic, so beer is a seldom indulged luxury--so it's diet Coke with Lime for me as drink of choice...

Mark

Just shoot me.

The more I thought about the fuel pump(s) not working on the track roadster the more I talked to myself. So...I had a fuel pump gasket in one hand,  to make a pump hole cover pattern for when I get an electric pump, and a cup of java in the other when I wondered whether the gasket would fit either way - that is, cover the boss.

Well, it would...so I went in the other garage to look at one of my spare blocks and discovered that its gasket was "up side down". so I held the pump on that way and the lever hit the cam lobe. Ta da. Small block chevys have the body of the pump down...why wouldn't their 4 cylinder be the same?

Just goes to prove that a wrong assumption will produce erroneous results - almost every time.

So I got the pump on, replumbed and it pumped fuel to the carbs, but not enough spark to kick it off. Battery also discharged too much so it's on the charger.

I noticed that the coil was hot to touch. It was an inventory item of unknown lineage, so maybe a new coil would be helpful.

I fear my Motor Doctor license is in danger of revocation as I sit here laughing at myself.

As Enjenjo would say...I'm wrong and deserve a beating.

Charlie

Charlie:  Your post caught my eye when you mentioned 4 cylinders.  What 4 cylinder engine are you using, and what kind of a car is it going into?..What kind of a transmission are you going to use?  Rear end and ratio?

I have Model A Fords, and as they are sort of chummy in the engine compartment,  I'm very interested in 4 cylinder and V6 options...tired of $3 a gallon gas prices, so good MPG is sort of where I want to be...rather than high performance.

I learned a lot by doing it myself from the stupid stuff I've done.  It's called learning....That hot coil, IMHO, is probably just from leaving the ignition key on...

In my 29 Coupe I too have the motor mount style that has 1 gusset going vertically down the boxing plate.  It has developed a crack at the lower point.   I'm going to cut these out and put in a pair of the Chassis Engineering kind that use the Flathead style biscuts.  

Because of this problem in my Coupe, when I built my 28 PU, I made my own mounts (using the biscuts) but welded the lower brackets all the way into the outer rails.  Then I boxed the frame.

Corn Fed, I've made similiar mounts (for mounting a 2.3 Ford Pinto with C4 automatic in a stock Model A chassis)  to what Chassis Engineering uses, after reading Roy Lewis's forward in his catalog.  I believe that it's better to put the force downward, instead of at an angle, wedging the rails apart.

And the Ford mount is designed with rubber on both ends to put the torque of the engine working against a rubber mount, instead of twisting and wedging the rails apart.

I went to an antique motorcycle meet on Sunday, at the Red Barns in Hickory Corners, MI with youngest son Dan, 13.  I found a good vintage car restoration book (British) for $4 and a 1930 MI plate for son Dan's Model A.

On the way back home, we stopped at the golden arches and we saw for sale a $200 Ford LTD 2 4 door.  It has nicer tires than my junker wagon, and some charging problems.  A new alternator was installed, and, judging by the asking price, I think the owner is fed up with it (overcahrges and battery continues to go dead) and has priced it for a quick sale.  It also has the Fuel injection, (1984 model).

So here's my "donor car" for the engine and transmission.  

Now to come up with the $200 bucks....and figure out a way to get it home and dissassembled....

I was getting a weird rattle / cracking noise for the past year and no way could I find it, but had it narrowed down to the front left side! Turned out to be a crck in the boxing plate around the motor mount! TCI mounts their motor mount, when using a Vega box, with the gusset on the underside of the mount ending half way down the boxing plate! There's nothing in behind the plate so all the weight of the engine is pretty much going into the boxing plate right in the center. The crack in mine was a U - shape right around the pointed end of the gusset. There's more - a friend here has a 34 with the same setup and his broke completely exactly the same and his engine fell in! Had to pull it to fix it. I sent TCI an email explaining it and haven't heard a thing. Don't really expect to either. I had LOTS of fit problems with that chassis way back when, and I wouldn't use another of their chassis if it was free! Y'got a TCI chassis using a vega box?.........might be an idea to have a look, cuz you can sure see why it'd crack / break!

I bought a TCI Model A front crossmember to replace the busted stocker in a 31  A frame I had.  It turned out to be shortened so you could butt weld to the inside of a boxed stock frame, or repro rails made from 2 x 4 rectangular steel tubing.

I bought one from Roy Lewis at Chassis Engineering in IA.  This member was full width...

I hate the idea of just riding on a weld.  Especially a weld that I didn't do.

This one was a lot better.

This is what I have been working on the last week.

I put the intake system all together for the sprint car. A Zepher manifold, home made adapters, and a pair of Winfield SR carbs. Ready to bolt on.

Also, I got the rear end together, a Home made quickchange with a Frankland rear cover. All new bearings and seals, the gears were in good shape. Moser made a new driveshaft for it, hard stuff, I needed a hole for a retaining pin, the local shop had to laser it in, too tough to drill. Still waiting on a seal for the torque tube to put that on.

I bought a Zepher manifold for my Model A back when I was in the Navy in 77.  Does yours take 97 carbs?...I still got mine somewhere, but I never got around to using it.  I got a  couple of single bbl carbs for it years back, as I was told that 2 97's (or 94's or 81's even) would be too much gasoline....think those were Strombergs too.  I forget.  Friend of mine amde a tube manifold with 2 flathead six carbs for his A racer.  He never did get that on the road (or track)

The woodie is powered with a 2.0 liter 1971 Ford Pinto engine, tied into the stock transmission and rear end.  3.78 gears and 29" tall 7.00 x 16" tires on the rear.

That sounds like a TECH entry for June, did you take pictures? GPster

I didn't have a camera when I did this GPster.  And me making the swap wasn't rocket science, as I paid $300 for a kit from Hudson Wagon Works in Hudson, IA.  

this was back in 1979.  He had an ad in Hemming's.   Dean Feazel, the guy who ran HWW at that time sold a set of plans to build an A Huckster wagon, then came up with this kit.  He also had plans to bolt in a 2.3 and auto in an A chassis.  

Funny thing, I was driving my stocker 30 A at that time.  I was given a photocopied set of these plans by a guy who was an Engineer and who worked for Electric Boat.  (I met this guy in Rhode Island in 77 when I was on active duty in the Navy there.)

Funny thing, he had a straight six powered Jeepster....I stopped to look at his car as he was working on it in his driveway....that's how I met this guy.

As far as this swap goes, it was so * simple that I kicked myself for not thinking this up by myself.

What Dean did was cut clearance on the Pinto block to clear the A starter, then bolted up a stock Model A clutch housing to the bock.  A simple spacer mounted a cut down and reballanced A fly wheel.  Some simple front engine mounts and it was a bolt in.  He recommended a Float-a-Motor kit to mount the clutch housing to the A frame.

The hard part was trying to get his stupid throttle  design to work. I wrote him and still couldn't get it going right.  So I bought a spoon throttle from Lokar and made that work with a  cable and a homemade bracket I designed.  19 years later.  I also made up a custom plate to mount a 10" Edelbrock aircleaner tot he Pinto 2 BBL carb.

I wrote to Dean a few years back and he was out of the kits.  He had plans for the spacer though for big money....(You had to have him machine the spacer for the OD of the Pinto crank flange, and that dimension varied....he redrilled the A flywheel for the Pinto crankshaft,a nd supplied long metric bolts to suit.)

I bought this kit in 79, spent $250 to rebuild a $25 engine, and did the swap, and in 80 I got into motorcycles, so my old car hobby sat for ten years.  Then I got married in 90, so everything sat.  When the boys got bigger, I went back to the old car thing, no room for two boys on a bike.  When the wife left in 2001, I got back into bikes again.

(In retrospect, it's funny how the wrong woman can hold you back...)

My advice is that this dinosaur swap is just something that I did because I was sick and tired of dealing with the stocker A engine.

Try and find a second hand 2.0 liter Pinto engine.  Downright impossible.  Parts are available.  Points and rotors/caps are VW parts--Ford used a Bosch dizzy as this is a German Ford engine.  The 2.3 is US made and not even close.  I bought a new cam and followers in 2001.  Followers are impossible to find.  Cams are easy to find.  Cams were a problem.  The oil wasn't the right stuff I was told, and Ford just changed to their 7500 mile oil change schedule.  Bad Idea.  All of us Rodders  know you have to change more often. I do it every 3k.

And the reason you can't do the 2.3 swap as the oil filter is in the way of the starter.  Feazel was working on a swap with the Escort mill when I wrote to him years back.  He must be in his 80's now.  You gotta love those geezer gearheads!

When I did this swap I was asked by another old car guy--who was very much into flatheads and Model A's...my mentor, Bill Proos, (RIP)--why I didn't use the Pinto auto trans as well.
Make a more modern chassis.

Well, I wanted to avoid having to hang a open rear end and all of the costs involved.  I felt you may as well make up a new chassis and start from scratch.  I didn't have that much money back in those days.

(Looking back today, it's looked like I've gone full circle...)

I guess that, today, with what I know about tooling, manufacturing, pattern making and foundry work...If I wanted to swap in a more modern engine into a Model A Ford and use the stock transmission, I'd use Dean's original idea, but I'd engineer an adapter bellhousing or a sub plate of some sort to bolt the engine to the A transmission.

I know that more than a few Chevy 4 Nova engines were swapped into Model A's with a V8 adapter from Chevrolet to 32-48 Ford transmissions.  But these engines were never very popular around where I grew up.  They were 2/3rds of a straight Chevy 230 six cylinder engine.

The closest that I came to one was my cousin who had a USPS Jeep Dispatcher with a Nova 4 and a powerglide, and I wanted to buy it when he had it for sale ($500) but he wouldn't sell it to Family.

I just wanted the engine and trans to put in a  Model A.  I guess I should of sent over a stranger with $500 to buy it.  Looking back, I think  I'd be ahead of the game with the Chevy engine over the Pinto mill.  But I wanted to keep it Ford in a Ford.

But I did see on a website a rebuilder who'll sell rebuilt long blocks outright.  Old Pinto 2.0 liters as well as the Chevy Nova mills.  But they're dinosaur engines and I'm sure the rest of the parts are hard to come by too.  And they're not cheap either.

I've got a cherry 1953 Military Dodge M 37 weapons carrier...the GI version of the Dodge Power Wagon, straight six flathead, and very low gears.  It sat for 8 years with gas in the tank, about 8 gallons.   Back in '03, when I was going to get it fired up and running again, I started to drain the tank.  Uncle Sam provided a nice drain system at the bottom of the tank, just crack it open with a wrench.

When I started to drain the tank, my buddy Doug, Gearhead Extraordinaire, told me to shut it off.  This is up on Beaver Isalnd, MI, where gas is a buck a gallon more than any other place in the world.  He said that it didn't smell any different than what they were selling downtown.  There was no water in the tank, probably because I'd kept dry gas in it.

We pulled it around the yard with the Ferguson tractor a half a dozen times, the amp meter showed that it was charging the two batteries, and after popping the clutch, it fired right up.  It still needed some choke, because the low speed jets were varnished up a bit.  After a bit of running, it cleared out enough to run with the choke off.

I know that I was lucky in this case.  I had planned on having to put fresh gas in the tank.  I've never used Stabil, some of my friends swear by that.   I've always added alcohol to the tanks of my vehicles that were in extended storage.

The only problem is that the A is about as sleek as a concrete block. Look at the frontal area, and compare the two vehicles.

John

Nothing like starting the day out with a good laugh!  

My chopped 2" junker Highboy 31 A coupe is very streamlined compared to my full fendered 28 Model A Woodie....

(Now you're going to have me calulating the frontal area of the LTD Vs. Da Coupe....)  :evil:

The woodie is powered with a 2.0 liter 1971 Ford Pinto engine, tied into the stock transmission and rear end.  3.78 gears and 29" tall 7.00 x 16" tires on the rear.

High teck, huh?   The reason I got rid of the stock 4 banger is that I got tired of pulling shims and scraping bearings.  The Pinto eliminated that, plus I picked up an additional 60 HP.  And my mileage went up to 28 mpg from 22.

But I feel sometimes that I'm reinventing the wheel here.  When the old guys went to race at the dry lakes, they stripped the car of all unnecessary weight, chopped the tops, and hopped up the original 4's, (or swapped in a bigger engine)

Our last trip to the Looiville Nats in 2000, we got behind a gal who was driving a Kenworth, I'd draft her until she started losing speed going up a hill, we'd pass her, she'd blow her horn, and then when she got on the flats again and up to speed, she'd ease over in front of us.  We both had a ball that day, and it ran so much easier.  With the engine and running gear combo I have, I'm not that far removed from stock.  

Very true though.  Model A's are as streamlined as a brick....

Any of you that have attended the awards ceremonies at any of the NSRA Nats North have probably heard Larry Radcliff speak on behalf of the Southern Michigan Street Rod Association.  He was a co-founder of the club in 1967 and was president many times over the years.  He was the guy on the mike at the Charleton Park Father's Day show that the club put on for 25 years too.   He died of a heart attack while on a fishing trip in northern Michigan Saturday.  

We worked together for over 20 years and shared many rodding trips, experiences, and tales.  He was a very kind hearted, happy man and will be missed dearly by many people.  I expect there will be many, many hotrods at the funeral tomorrow.

I just thought I'd mention it in case someone here had met him and would like to know.

George :cry:

I'm sorry to hear that George.  My son Dan and I got to shake his hand once when he presented us with an award at the 2000 Father's Day Car Show at Charleton Park for our 28 Model A Woodie.

I'm a pretty young "Geezer" but it seems with each passing day I lose more and more of my friends and acquaintences.

My condolences to his family, and May God Bless.

Mark aka Abonecoupe31

I would have to think that a lot of that 20mpg is due to the computer. There may be bits and pieces that you might want to pull out of the bundle but getting use to 20 mpg might take a little bit of getting use to someting else. GOD am I negative today, GPster

GPster: (and enjenjo) :

Well, I drove into Grand Rapids today to get my check cashed and the bills for the month paid, and I did swing by Central Iron and Steel and ran it on the scale.  Steve, my good buddy asked me if I was going to scrap it.  I said, not yet, but eventually.  I told him that I may well put that engine (or another one like it) in a Model A chassis.  Something a bit more modern so to speak.

I was really impressed.  In round numbers, this car, with 7 gallons of gasoline in the tank, came in at 3440#.   A stock A coupe is 2275#.  I had approximately 42# of fuel in the tank.  So in round numbers, I'm going to lose close to 1100# if I swap this engine into a Model A chassis.

How much mileage (and seat of the pants performance) do you think I can gain by doing this swap?  I'm thinking it will be worthwile to try it out and find out.   Hot rodders have always tried to lighten to load to get more (and better) performance.

Right now, I'm going to look around and see if I can get a "dummy" engine and transmission to start working on the engineering aspects of making the physical retrofit.  Make the mounts, etc. that I'll need to make this swap a possibility.   I doubt if these mounts are available commercially.

Mark aka Abonecoupe31