Transmission Question..Ford 3.8 V6 with C-5 Automatic

[abonecoupe31]

My daily driver is a $500 junker 86 ford LTD station wagon with 3.8 V6 and C-5 automatic.  It's Fuel injected,a nd I'm wondering out loud about what it would take to put this engine/transmission in a Model A.  It goes down the road nice and gets me 20 mpg.  I'm thinking that in a stripped down coupe performance would be great and the mileage might be a little better.

The transmission is a C-5 , which is an automatic with a lock up feature on the converter, so it handles like a stick shift in the lock up mode.

Is this transmission computer controlled?...

I'm a total idiot with anything that doesn't have a set of points, and I'm wondering what it  would take to swap this entire prime mover into a Model A chassis.

Is there anything else out there that anyone would recommend that would be an easy swap for a guy like myself?

(My other rod is a 28 Ford woodie wagon with a 2.0 liter Ford Pinto 4 banger tied into a stock Model A trans and rear end.)

[enjenjo]

This would be a good swap. The C5 is not computer controlled. The only hard part would be setting up the fuel injection, but if you have a complete donor car, all the stuff is there.

[junkyardjeff]

If it has a throttle body EFI a 2 bbl carb will bolt on and there are non computer duraspark electronic distributors out there for those motors made in 82 or 83,a neighbor at a shop I worked at had a 83ish mercury version that had a carb and a distributor that used the brain box that bolted to the fender well.  Jeff

[abonecoupe31]

This would be a good swap. The C5 is not computer controlled. The only hard part would be setting up the fuel injection, but if you have a complete donor car, all the stuff is there.

Thanks to both of you guys.  This is VERY helpful information.  I think that by modifying this engine with a carburetor and with the proper distributor that I'll be able to do this swap by myself with no problems.

And getting both of those parts will be as easy as a trip to my automotive wholesaler.  Buying them new/rebuilt.

I know NOTHING about the EFI or working with that, so I'll leave that to the modern gearheads.

Any idea, enjenjo, of what size tires and rear end ratio your friend uses in his A with the 3.8 and auto...and what his gas mileage is like on the road?

Mark aka Abonecoupe31

[GPster]

I would have to think that a lot of that 20mpg is due to the computer. There may be bits and pieces that you might want to pull out of the bundle but getting use to 20 mpg might take a little bit of getting use to someting else. GOD am I negative today, GPster

[enjenjo]

Do what you are comfortable with, but here is some more info.

Typically on Fords of that era, the computer harness was seperate from the other wiring, and can be removed intact. There are only a couple power and ground connections to the regular harness. It should be fairly easy to transplant the whole thing.

[abonecoupe31]

I would have to think that a lot of that 20mpg is due to the computer. There may be bits and pieces that you might want to pull out of the bundle but getting use to 20 mpg might take a little bit of getting use to someting else. GOD am I negative today, GPster

GPster:  Not sure on how to take what you said....You're saying that the 20 mpg is because of the computer controls?  All I can say, having driven Ford vehicles with EFI and computers (since 88) is that the engines seem to last a lot longer due to the precision of the computer controls, and less running rich (like in the olden carb days, with the choke on) and washing oil off the cylinder walls.

[GPster]

GPster:  Not sure on how to take what you said....You're saying that the 20 mpg is because of the computer controls?

When I read your question you mentioned not being up on anything that was newer than having ignition points. Some of the other replies mentioned switching carbs for the TBI. I was just trying to mention that that power package that was giving you 20mpg probably wouldn't do that if you chose to bring it down to the points level. The mention of me being negative is a realization of myself and that maybe it's time to shut up but I wasn't fast enough. GPster

[donsrods]

In 1985 I bought a new Mercury Cougar with this same package. It really had a lot of power and gas milage was decent (don't remember exact numbers)


I had some head problems with mine, but it was the Mexican engine, and the district rep I spoke to on the phone told me they had some head sealing issues with that series.  I don't know if this was a widespread problem with these 3.8's or not, but mine blew at 20,000 miles and I had to have a new engine put in.

But it did have plenty of power and drove great for the most part.


Don

[abonecoupe31]

GPster:  Not sure on how to take what you said....You're saying that the 20 mpg is because of the computer controls?

When I read your question you mentioned not being up on anything that was newer than having ignition points. Some of the other replies mentioned switching carbs for the TBI. I was just trying to mention that that power package that was giving you 20mpg probably wouldn't do that if you chose to bring it down to the points level. The mention of me being negative is a realization of myself and that maybe it's time to shut up but I wasn't fast enough. GPster

GPster:  I really didn't think of your reply as being anything negative.  I appreciate you being able to give me an honest opinion.  It's just that I'm pretty low tech, and any of the engines that I've been really intimate with have been dinosaurs compared to the EFI computer controlled equipment we have today.

I just don't have any experience with any of the new equipment, scared to death of it really, and I'm bucks down and can't afford to have a pro build a car for me.  There are people in the area who do a great job with the high teck stuff.  I've been in one man's shop and everything he does is computer controlled.  He told me that it's all ahe'll work with today.  Looking at what he has going on, I don't think that I could afford to have him set up a car with the late model equipment.

I'm thinking that if I run a 3.0 gear ratio with some 28" tall tires, I'll have a good crusing combination with pretty good mileage.  I think today I'll stop over at the scrapyard and put this Ford wagon on the scales and see what it weighs in at for grin's sake.  That will give me a good idea of the weight loss possible if I drop this type of engine/transmission into a Model A chassis.

This particular car has 115k miles on it, starts right up, doesn't smoke, and appears to have been given good regular service.  Right now, it's my daily driver, but I can see getting another car with this combination, hopefully an earlier on with a carb and the duraspark distributor.  Reading the owner's manual, I see that the 86 models for the Canadian market were so equipped.

I did the math on displacement and 3.8 liters is roughly 225 cubic inches.  I'm that old of a geezer, I think in cubes still.  I remember a lot of straight six engines of that displacement in the old points days that regularily got 20 + mpg.  So maybe it's still possible today.  I wouldn't need that large of a carburetor to feed that much engine.

What do ya think?

Mark aka Abonecoupe31

I didn't know that there were Mexican engines made.  Are they all Mexican?  I remember that GM had problems with castings Hecho en Mexico.  This is something I would like to avoid.

[abonecoupe31]

I would have to think that a lot of that 20mpg is due to the computer. There may be bits and pieces that you might want to pull out of the bundle but getting use to 20 mpg might take a little bit of getting use to someting else. GOD am I negative today, GPster

GPster: (and enjenjo) :

Well, I drove into Grand Rapids today to get my check cashed and the bills for the month paid, and I did swing by Central Iron and Steel and ran it on the scale.  Steve, my good buddy asked me if I was going to scrap it.  I said, not yet, but eventually.  I told him that I may well put that engine (or another one like it) in a Model A chassis.  Something a bit more modern so to speak.

I was really impressed.  In round numbers, this car, with 7 gallons of gasoline in the tank, came in at 3440#.   A stock A coupe is 2275#.  I had approximately 42# of fuel in the tank.  So in round numbers, I'm going to lose close to 1100# if I swap this engine into a Model A chassis.

How much mileage (and seat of the pants performance) do you think I can gain by doing this swap?  I'm thinking it will be worthwile to try it out and find out.   Hot rodders have always tried to lighten to load to get more (and better) performance.

Right now, I'm going to look around and see if I can get a "dummy" engine and transmission to start working on the engineering aspects of making the physical retrofit.  Make the mounts, etc. that I'll need to make this swap a possibility.   I doubt if these mounts are available commercially.

Mark aka Abonecoupe31

[parklane]

The only problem is that the A is about as sleek as a concrete block. Look at the frontal area, and compare the two vehicles.

John

[abonecoupe31]

The only problem is that the A is about as sleek as a concrete block. Look at the frontal area, and compare the two vehicles.

John

Nothing like starting the day out with a good laugh!  

My chopped 2" junker Highboy 31 A coupe is very streamlined compared to my full fendered 28 Model A Woodie....

(Now you're going to have me calulating the frontal area of the LTD Vs. Da Coupe....)  :evil:

The woodie is powered with a 2.0 liter 1971 Ford Pinto engine, tied into the stock transmission and rear end.  3.78 gears and 29" tall 7.00 x 16" tires on the rear.

High teck, huh?   The reason I got rid of the stock 4 banger is that I got tired of pulling shims and scraping bearings.  The Pinto eliminated that, plus I picked up an additional 60 HP.  And my mileage went up to 28 mpg from 22.

But I feel sometimes that I'm reinventing the wheel here.  When the old guys went to race at the dry lakes, they stripped the car of all unnecessary weight, chopped the tops, and hopped up the original 4's, (or swapped in a bigger engine)

Our last trip to the Looiville Nats in 2000, we got behind a gal who was driving a Kenworth, I'd draft her until she started losing speed going up a hill, we'd pass her, she'd blow her horn, and then when she got on the flats again and up to speed, she'd ease over in front of us.  We both had a ball that day, and it ran so much easier.  With the engine and running gear combo I have, I'm not that far removed from stock.  

Very true though.  Model A's are as streamlined as a brick....

[jaybee]

Sounds like a lot of fun, should be a kick to drive on the street.  Packaging issues should be a lot less, maybe you could even fit it in without a firewall setback.  If budget is an issue (isn't it always?) I'd at least give a shot at fitting the stock EFI.  After all, costs are minimal to use what's already there.  As you pull the engine & trans just pull the engine wiring harness as well as any and all black boxes that are plugged into it.  Label everything as you go and then hook it all back up on the shop floor where you can get a good look at it.  There are people here who can help you (who has the link to Choco's book?) so you don't need to pay your local shop to set it up.  Voila, you've saved hundreds of dollars over a swap to manifold and carb!

[GPster]

The woodie is powered with a 2.0 liter 1971 Ford Pinto engine, tied into the stock transmission and rear end.  3.78 gears and 29" tall 7.00 x 16" tires on the rear.

That sounds like a TECH entry for June, did you take pictures? GPster