Starter Help

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 10:08:02 AM

Went to take the Tuna boat for one last trip to the Indiana DQ last night and it would not start. First time it turned over, tried to start but would not. Then after that every time I would turn the key.. fast clicking... thought maybe I had a battery problem. Got the jumpers out... with the jumper cables connected.. I turned the key.. BAM... loud noise ... almost a back fire... being a Team Smart member I tried again.. Bam.. same noise.. of course trying to really reinforce my status in Team smart... I tried a third time.. it started...

Drove around a bit... came home.. put it back in the garage.

Talked with my car buddies.. said it sounded like a starter going bad. They told me give the starter a good wack with a wrench...

I tried to start the car this morning.. turned the key.. bam... same odd noise.. now lots of clicking... wacked the starter .. with a hammer.. nothing really changed..

I have lights, radio.. volt gauge says I am getting a good 12volts.

Starter... I have to move starting tuesday.. how difficult is it to change a starter?

Tip, thoughts, advice please..

350 chevy small block.. mid 80's vintage.

57larry · July 27, 2008, 10:32:12 AM

disconnect the battery, there are 2 bolts holding the starter up to the block and disconnect the wires to the solenoid. that's it. it could be just a bad solenoid. take the starter off and take it to auto zone and have it tested

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 12:55:59 PM

Quote from: "57larry"disconnect the battery, there are 2 bolts holding the starter up to the block and disconnect the wires to the solenoid. that's it. it could be just a bad solenoid. take the starter off and take it to auto zone and have it tested

Your real time update, the starter is out..... now off to the auto zone... wish me luck..

Viva Team Smart!

wayne petty · July 27, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

there is a way to test the starter on the ground.... with jumper cables or a jumper box....

hook up the black lead to the front of the starter .. or over the ears that hold the solenoid to the nose... never to the back plate that covers the brushes...

touch the red wire to the lower large post on the solenoid.. this should make the starter spin at full speed.... except of mopar starters let it run a few seconds...(mopar starters tend to hand grenade when tested unloaded)

let the motor come to a stop... then touch the red to the S terminal... ( 3 o clock on gm solenoids) this should cause the drive pinion to extend.. the motor may start to spin slowly... test it 4 or 5 times.. but not for more than a few seconds...

then put the red wire to the top post on the solenoid... and use a screw driver or open the jaws and touch both at the same time ... this should extend and cause the motor to spin at the same time....

i just don't understand the noise you are hearing unless something is broken...

it is possible that the brushes are worn down...

if you look at the circuit for the starter... the battery connects to the top... the ignition switch solenoid connects to the S terminal... this pulls the plunger in to lever the pinion drive gear into the flywheel... just as it reaches max... the plunger hits the button at the back of the solenoid bore... this forces the contact disc out to close the circuit...and spin the starter motor...

this is done this way to get the drive pinion into the flywheel before the starter starts to turn... ...

the other thing that is missed... is the S terminal is grounded through the bottom terminal.. (through the brushes and armature.) bad /worn brushes no solenoid action.. this does more than one thing.. it also reduces the amont of current flowing through the solenoid circuit...

also check the drive pinion for one way operation... if it spins really free... it may be failing... there are usually 5 rollers that are spring loaded into a sprag sort of assembly. when the gear freewheels in the free direction too freely.. try to see if it will go in the other direction ... if it goes at all... it has worn out...

oh.. and the terminal at 9 o clock is the by pass circuit that feeds full battery voltage to the ign coil + while the engine is cranking... on cars that came with points... the ign switch disconnects the power to the coil + when it is in the crank position.. ( for those with dash mounted ign switches and electronic ign.. you might look at going to a 75 up chevy/gmc step van ignition switch... those should not break the ign 1 power during cranking.. just a thought

gm starters are easy to take apart... and brushes are available at most parts stores... as are repair kits... if you ask for them...

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 01:53:14 PM

Well I am back from the auto zone, its not the starter...

Wayne thanks for the info.

I am not sure if I am happy or sad... I will start putting the starter back in... if you guys have any ideas.. please share... I checked the cable from the battery to the starter and there were not obvious breaks or anything.. looks pretty new. I am gonna clean the battery terminals.. I guess it could be the battery??

GPster · July 27, 2008, 03:08:57 PM

Yeh, but did you get your taillights fixed? I wonder about AZ's check. I'd think it would be hard to check a starter unless you put it under load (cranking). To me it sounds like the solenoid. The clicking sound if it's not a dead battery is sometime the solenoid not pulling clear in to make contact for the starter motor itself. I have seen where the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth won't mesh and the starter won't work because the solenoid won't travel far enough to put the starter teeth in the flywheel and make final contact. Sometimes if this happens you can turn the engine a bit (by turning the raditor fan) to line up a different set of teeth. If it doesn't start when you get the starter back in it will get figured out. This is one of the reasons that we all wanted standard shift in the old days and we used to ride around with a bunch of people in the car

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 03:45:39 PM

ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.

GPster · July 27, 2008, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: "msuguydon"ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.

Did this part get rewired too? If it did the we're probably going to need to know where those smaller wires go. Do you still have every thing else working? It might just be that you reversed the two smaller wires. It was in neutral or park, right? GPster

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: "GPster"
Quote from: "msuguydon"ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.
Did this part get rewired too? If it did the we're probably going to need to know where those smaller wires go. Do you still have every thing else working? It might just be that you reversed the two smaller wires. It was in neutral or park, right? GPster

yes it was in park... everything else works, radio. headlights etc.. its a delco 1109061

There is one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)

Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..

wayne petty · July 27, 2008, 05:11:36 PM

Quote from:

one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)

Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..[/quote

yes but did it work like that..

the 12 o clock post get the battery cable... sometimes one or 2 wires to feed the car with power...

the 9 o clock post is R that is the feed to the + side of the coil.

the 3 O clock post (closest to the block) is the wire from the ign switch that is active only when the key it turned.. ... and usually purple.. but who knows on your car...

i hope you can get this thing fixed....

wayne..

if not call me while you are under there.. i will send my number via pm....

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 06:14:20 PM

two of the three wires coming from the car have large hole connectors on the end... I am assuming these would connect to the noon terminal as it is the larger post.. the other wire.. has a small hole connector, I currently have it connect to the nine but am trying to move it too 3.. problem is the nut is spinning and I cannot get it off..ugg I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrated....

Quote from: "wayne petty"
Quote from:

one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)

Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..[/quote

yes but did it work like that..

the 12 o clock post get the battery cable... sometimes one or 2 wires to feed the car with power...

the 9 o clock post is R that is the feed to the + side of the coil.

the 3 O clock post (closest to the block) is the wire from the ign switch that is active only when the key it turned.. ... and usually purple.. but who knows on your car...

i hope you can get this thing fixed....

wayne..

if not call me while you are under there.. i will send my number via pm....

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 06:52:06 PM

I quit for the day.... 4 days till I move and I am stuck... uggg.. I do not need this right now... got rear ended on Friday by a 18 wheeler at a traffic light.. in my 6 month old GMC...... don't need that either... thanks for letting me vent...

GPster · July 27, 2008, 06:58:12 PM

All the wires with big terminals go with the battery wire. I'm not surprised that there is only one more wire. Because your engine has HEI there would be no need for the other wire because you wouldn't have a "HOT" wire going to the coil on a points ignition. If I understand your problem on getting the little wire off the solenoid that points to the solenoid being questionable. Tose small terminals are like carrage bolts and when they turn they might have the wire turned off of them on the inside or their top, which is a terminal could be loose and out of place. I think you should pull the starter off again. GPster

msuguydon · July 27, 2008, 08:01:33 PM

Quote from: "GPster"I think you should pull the starter off again. GPster

Your killing me man... I got no time for that.....

reborn55 · July 27, 2008, 09:50:53 PM

Sometimes starters test good with no load and when you put the load of trying to start the engine they do not respond