It runs....sorta

zzebby · January 04, 2008, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: "wayne petty"did anybody back probe the system with a test light?>>> the transister driver in the ecm blows out at 1 amp.... sometimes using aftermarker relays without diodes to dampin the high voltage spikes that can be generated when the ecm opens the circut...and the magnetic field collapses in the relay....

are you anywhere near los angeles..

i have several eec 4 break out boxes... got a otc at a swap meet and a rotunda from a scrap truck where a ford dealer threw it out...

Wayne
No have not probed at all. I do have a digitable multi meter and will be using it but haven't yet. Yes you are correct about the spikes, they can blow a transistor or logic circuit, that is part of my job at work, we put diodes in mil spec connectors for aircraft and military equip just for that reason.
I am using an aftermarket fuse / relay box from Bussman, but it uses automotive relays that have the diode. The relays are the smaller GM type that are rectangular.
I may have a computer problem as the fuel pump does not shut off like it did previously, but I think I have a fuel problem that is causing the non start. Tonight and weekend I will get a fuel pressure gauge and check that back. There is a coarse filter upstream of the fuel pump and I can see gas in it, but the fine fuel filter after the pump is unknown. Yes the flow symbol is pointing correctly. Could the fuel regulator be stock open and cause all fuel to go back to the tank? Could the injectors be clogged enough to cause no start? Don't know how long it sat in the junk yard.

Leon · January 04, 2008, 12:52:54 PM

One question - when you rewired to use the MAF, did you add the wire that goes from the fuel pump to the computer to monitor it (FPM) on pin 19?

kb426 · January 04, 2008, 01:01:27 PM

Harbor Freight sells a $15 kit that has a gauge and a tee and some hose that you can use if you have hose in the system somewhere. If you have the schrader valve on the inlet, you would need their higher priced kit. I don't think it is common for a regulator to be stuck open. If it's possible, check the return line for flow. It the reg is open, you'll have quite a stream of fuel. I'd start with finding out why the pump relay doesn't shut off after the initial key on. That makes me nervous.

zzebby · January 04, 2008, 01:48:11 PM

Quote from: "Leon"One question - when you rewired to use the MAF, did you add the wire that goes from the fuel pump to the computer to monitor it (FPM) on pin 19?

Leon
Yes I added the wire from pin 19 to the fuel pump power side. I'm surprised that the computer monitors this way, with only reading 12 volts. It really should read oil pressure to know that the engine is running, or monitor the tach line or ignition.
Pin 22 is the one that provides ground to the fuel pump relay to turn it on. I don't know why it is now always ground, especially when two days ago it was working correctly and only turning on for a few secs

I don't have an extra MAF computer to try, but do have a speed density computer and .........what would happen? If I cook the speed density ....so what.

zzebby · January 04, 2008, 01:57:49 PM

Quote from: "kb426"Harbor Freight sells a $15 kit that has a gauge and a tee and some hose that you can use if you have hose in the system somewhere. If you have the schrader valve on the inlet, you would need their higher priced kit. I don't think it is common for a regulator to be stuck open. If it's possible, check the return line for flow. It the reg is open, you'll have quite a stream of fuel. I'd start with finding out why the pump relay doesn't shut off after the initial key on. That makes me nervous.

Yes need to find out why the fuel pump won't stop.
Fuel system has a schrader valve.
I can't see the return line easily, and can't really tell by any sounds in the fuel tank. Will get a fuel pressure gauge.....what would a tire pressure gauge do on the schrader valve

wayne petty · January 04, 2008, 02:10:39 PM

the ford uses teh same size fitting as a tire... but they sink the core in deeper.. be sure to have the cap on it...when not testing ... i have seen a few cars that burned when the fuel leaked from that... probably do to improper poking at it to test fuel pressure...

most auto parts stores have the fuel pressure tester that looks like a compression tester but it has a clear vinal hose also.. this is to blead off fuel pressure safely.. the kits come with the proper adaptor...

there are trouble shooting charts for every item in that system... i take it you have printed these out... the wife has boxed up all but a few of my manuals....
here another link with codes on it.. and how to access them

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/19/4c/96/0900823d80194c96/repairInfoPages.htm

did you look at figure 6 of the link i sent ...

?

zzebby · January 04, 2008, 06:55:02 PM

Quote from: "wayne petty"the ford uses teh same size fitting as a tire... but they sink the core in deeper.. be sure to have the cap on it...when not testing ... i have seen a few cars that burned when the fuel leaked from that... probably do to improper poking at it to test fuel pressure...

most auto parts stores have the fuel pressure tester that looks like a compression tester but it has a clear vinal hose also.. this is to blead off fuel pressure safely.. the kits come with the proper adaptor...

there are trouble shooting charts for every item in that system... i take it you have printed these out... the wife has boxed up all but a few of my manuals....
here another link with codes on it.. and how to access them

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/19/4c/96/0900823d80194c96/repairInfoPages.htm

did you look at figure 6 of the link i sent ...?

Yes I looked at figure 6. This was one of the diagrams that I used to rewire the engine swap. It was taped to the wall over the work bench.
Keep the advice coming.........I'm still learning.

Leon · January 04, 2008, 09:15:25 PM

You could try swapping the speed density computer back in if you switch the pins back, otherwise I'd look at other troubleshooting methods. Since the fuel pump relay line now shows a ground, does it still show it if you unplug the computer? If so, you might have it shorted to ground somewhere, the wire may have chaffed and grounded.

zzebby · January 05, 2008, 03:26:37 PM

OK, it has 42 psi of fuel pressure at the rails. That means fuel is getting to the injectors and I've already confirmed that it has spark and earlier this week it would run for a few secs. So my diagnosis is that the injectors must be clogged. Right wrong or can a fried computer make it not run at all ? The fuel pump still runs all the time and when I unplug the computor it does not run at all so pin 22 is stuck at ground. I'm nervous about putting the speed density back in ........ could it hurt anything other than the computer itself ?? Or should I shop for another A9P ??
Looking for advice???

kb426 · January 05, 2008, 04:47:24 PM

It's not the injectors unless you passed alot of crap through the lines. You already stated that you had 2 filters so I doubt that you passed enough stuff to plug an injector. I don't have a clue about the sd computer. Did you make it far enough to get a code reader and see if you have codes?

zzebby · January 05, 2008, 05:19:12 PM

Quote from: "kb426"It's not the injectors unless you passed alot of crap through the lines. You already stated that you had 2 filters so I doubt that you passed enough stuff to plug an injector. I don't have a clue about the sd computer. Did you make it far enough to get a code reader and see if you have codes?

Still don't have a code reader......
My assumption on the clogged injectors is that I bought this engine out of a junkyard and that maybe it sat there a long time and the fuel went to varnish. Maybe they are original injectors and have never been cleaned. Is this possible? It will not start now but it will fire a few cylinders upon first crank then nothing. Just a little fuel getting thru ??

kb426 · January 05, 2008, 05:44:42 PM

My recent engine purchase set in a junk yard for an untold time. I put an inline filter after the pump and I have the sock on the inlet of the pump. My thought is because you have 40 lbs. of pressure, this isn't anything like a carb. Until you get a code reader or swap your computer with someone to tell it's good, don't play games with your mind. I had 2 computers I swapped out. There were times that it wouldn't start with one but it would with the other. If you haven't unhooked the battery and let it set for 30 minutes, it can still have codes in it that wouldn't let it start. Some of the mustang forum guys say to unhook the negative cable and hook the negative to the posiitive to help it discharge. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. My advice to you is try to be patient and do more thinking than working. I'm old enough that the brain isn't as good as it once was and I can screw up and later say, what was I thinking?

wayne petty · January 06, 2008, 04:33:26 AM

ok... somewere in my house i have a chiltons professional manual that covers a lot of the ford troubleshooting charts for ford fuel injection....

i have also possable a ford HC manual that covers the fuel injecton systems... but i have not seen it in several years... there are over 150 office boxes in there.. and the wife restacks them as soon as i try to figure out what in there... they are 3 stacks deep and all the way to the ceiling... not counting the 25 wedged into the closet.. yes that one.. the one the cat likes to climb in and get trapped..

i got from a customer a 4 year subscription card for eautorepair.net... that is mitchells consumer site..
it is useable for one car only... for 4 years.....
it is sitting infront of me...

these charts start at A... and go through ZZ... and sometimes are several pages long...

does anybody have a 87 to 95 ford HC manual handy... as i think that would solve the problem.. or at least get us farther..

so if i deside do donate the 4 years to this group.. what year mustang 5.0 should we choose...

http://www.eautorepair.net/ they start at 10 bucks if anybody else wants to check it out for a differnt project.. 83 and up...

i even have 2 eec4 brake out boxes if it needs to get that far.. to members in long standing..that could be ups'ed out for loan......

zzebby · January 06, 2008, 01:43:33 PM

Quote from: "wayne petty"ok... somewere in my house i have a chiltons professional manual that covers a lot of the ford troubleshooting charts for ford fuel injection....

i have also possable a ford HC manual that covers the fuel injecton systems... but i have not seen it in several years... there are over 150 office boxes in there.. and the wife restacks them as soon as i try to figure out what in there... they are 3 stacks deep and all the way to the ceiling... not counting the 25 wedged into the closet.. yes that one.. the one the cat likes to climb in and get trapped..

i got from a customer a 4 year subscription card for eautorepair.net... that is mitchells consumer site..
it is useable for one car only... for 4 years.....
it is sitting infront of me...

these charts start at A... and go through ZZ... and sometimes are several pages long...

does anybody have a 87 to 95 ford HC manual handy... as i think that would solve the problem.. or at least get us farther..

so if i deside do donate the 4 years to this group.. what year mustang 5.0 should we choose...

http://www.eautorepair.net/ they start at 10 bucks if anybody else wants to check it out for a differnt project.. 83 and up...

i even have 2 eec4 brake out boxes if it needs to get that far.. to members in long standing..that could be ups'ed out for loan......

Wayne
Thanks, the Mitchels would have saved a lot of searching. It is now bookmarked.
I'm at the point where I need to go buy a code reader and also try the cpu in another car. My intuition still tells me that it is not getting fuel and that the injectors are clogged but still it could be some gremlin in the cpu that is shutting down.

enjenjo · January 06, 2008, 03:05:31 PM

I have never seen all the injectors clog, one or two, yes, but never all of them.

Since you are seeing the pump run all the time, there is one of two problems, A the computer is bad, or B the wire is shorted. Since the pump does not run with the computer disconnected, it seems the wire is OK.

Since the problem is more than likely the computer, or computer related, you have two possibilities, A the computer is defective, or B it is getting a wrong input. I would get this fixed first, before I moved on to why it won't start, sice it did start and run for a short time.

I am not a big fan of hooking things up temporarily, it seems to bite me in the * when I do. It may be depending on a cranking signal to move to the next step, and not getting it.

I tend to do thinks myself, but if I run into problems like this, I find a fresh set of eyes can find the problem.