4 speed Muncie vs. 350 Auto

msuguydon · December 09, 2006, 07:59:05 PM

My hot rod mentor has proposed a deal to me. He has a 66 Chevelle that he wants to get on the road for his wife to drive, it has a M21 Muncie 4- speed, she does not want to drive a stick, my car has a 350 auto, he is proposing a straight up trade, I am thinking ALRIGHT, but am I a dope, am I gonna regret this down the road if I want to sell my car

For the record my car is a 58 Chevy, more door, C-Dan

tomslik · December 09, 2006, 08:23:10 PM

how about i send him a 400 turbo for his muncie?

enjenjo · December 09, 2006, 08:56:50 PM

I don't think it will be a problem selling it with a stick, they seem to be gaining in popularity.

1FATGMC · December 09, 2006, 11:55:48 PM

Quote from: "msuguydon"My hot rod mentor has proposed a deal to me. He has a 66 Chevelle that he wants to get on the road for his wife to drive, it has a M21 Muncie 4- speed, she does not want to drive a stick, my car has a 350 auto, he is proposing a straight up trade, I am thinking ALRIGHT, but am I a dope, am I gonna regret this down the road if I want to sell my car

For the record my car is a 58 Chevy, more door, C-Dan

Are you aware that the M21 is the close ratio with these gears:

M21, 1st=2.20, 2nd=1.64, 3rd=1.28. 4th= 1.00

So 1st is pretty high in this transmission compared to other 4 speeds. This might not be a problem, but just wanted you to know if you didn't already. It was popular as a road race transmission and I don't think was popular with the drag guys with the high first.

Still I think it is worth a lot more than a 350 to the right person. It is what we have been using in Hooley's Stude. I got it from Wayne who use to post on this board all the time and was going to use it in a lakester before I downsized to a motorcycle motor. Wayne gave it to me for a killer price and rebuilt it. At least it got into a car that got on the salt and set a record. Next week Hooley will get his new transmission. I figured gear ratios and he ordered a G-Force 4 speed from G-Force and they built it and shipped it the other day. This is the same transmission the NASCAR guys use and we have 3rd setup as a .931 overdrive. It has a tall 1.93 1st that we will have to for sure push the car off to about 55 mph. How does 125 mph sound before he will shift to 2nd and then the shift to 3rd will come about 180

. We are hoping for a little over 250 in the overdrive gear.

c ya,

Sum

58 Yeoman · December 10, 2006, 07:02:03 AM

My 58 came with a 2speed powerglide (cast iron), and I switched it to a stick on the column from one of the parts cars. I've got a floor shifter to put into it one of these days, as the linkage is getting a bit loose on the column. I have thought about going back to an automatic at times, but it would now be a hassle, as I wouldn't go back to a casst iron auto. I like to shift fast now and then, but I don't race, so a 4 speed with odd ratio's wouldn't bother me. What kind of driving do you plan to do?

GPster · December 10, 2006, 08:22:21 AM

If I was your friend I'd start looking for a '66 Chevell that had an automatic transmission and I'd get all the parts for the change even if it was for a different model and I'd save all of the correct parts so it could be changed back. There is a current change towards cloning but one day I think things will come back to number matching equipment. The wanting to turn the car into a usuable "wife driven" car is OK but if she get's tired of it and someone wants it to do a 100% restoration having 110% of the correct parts might prove valuable. I had a friend that ordered a '72 chevy truck with a big block. He was somewhat dissapointed when it came with the 402 but he took it and kept it as it was and drove it. When he had a little bit of money laying around he ordered replacement parts for it and shelved them. When his health started declining he needed a new vehicle with a wheelchair lift and he talked a friend into buying the '72 and the parts so he would have some cash. The guy did it to help a friend (now deceased) and just kept the package together with more memory of the friend than the vehicle. People have wondered where the vehicle went and he's never lied about it but never has offered it for sale. So it's never been on any kind of market. He's been offered $6,000.00 for it and has just kept that in the back of his mind, that's for a truck that only cost $4,100.00 new (and the window sticker is still intact). If your buddy ever sold the Chevell he could attract two different factions if he at least had the parts. What he does with his money and time is his business. The same with you and yours. I'm no pro with the value of things but I listen when I'm told "it's not worth anything" and why. GPster

msuguydon · December 10, 2006, 10:29:40 AM

Quote from: "1FATGMC"
Quote from: "msuguydon"My hot rod mentor has proposed a deal to me. He has a 66 Chevelle that he wants to get on the road for his wife to drive, it has a M21 Muncie 4- speed, she does not want to drive a stick, my car has a 350 auto, he is proposing a straight up trade, I am thinking ALRIGHT, but am I a dope, am I gonna regret this down the road if I want to sell my car

For the record my car is a 58 Chevy, more door, C-Dan

Are you aware that the M21 is the close ratio with these gears:

M21, 1st=2.20, 2nd=1.64, 3rd=1.28. 4th= 1.00

So 1st is pretty high in this transmission compared to other 4 speeds. This might not be a problem, but just wanted you to know if you didn't already. It was popular as a road race transmission and I don't think was popular with the drag guys with the high first.

Still I think it is worth a lot more than a 350 to the right person. It is what we have been using in Hooley's Stude. I got it from Wayne who use to post on this board all the time and was going to use it in a lakester before I downsized to a motorcycle motor. Wayne gave it to me for a killer price and rebuilt it. At least it got into a car that got on the salt and set a record. Next week Hooley will get his new transmission. I figured gear ratios and he ordered a G-Force 4 speed from G-Force and they built it and shipped it the other day. This is the same transmission the NASCAR guys use and we have 3rd setup as a .931 overdrive. It has a tall 1.93 1st that we will have to for sure push the car off to about 55 mph. How does 125 mph sound before he will shift to 2nd and then the shift to 3rd will come about 180 . We are hoping for a little over 250 in the overdrive gear.

c ya,

Sum

I have to be honest, most of this post was way over my head, but Thanks for taking the time to share the information with me. I have no intent to race my car, it will be a Saturday night cruiser.

I am not sure if you are telling me that the gear ratios are gonna make it difficult to drive, are you telling me the gear ratios are close so it require a lot of shifting or are you telling me this ratio set-up is designed for a particulat style or racing.

If you are willing, dumb it down a bit for the new guy.

msuguydon · December 10, 2006, 10:44:31 AM

Quote from: "58 Yeoman"My 58 came with a 2speed powerglide (cast iron), and I switched it to a stick on the column from one of the parts cars. I've got a floor shifter to put into it one of these days, as the linkage is getting a bit loose on the column. I have thought about going back to an automatic at times, but it would now be a hassle, as I wouldn't go back to a casst iron auto. I like to shift fast now and then, but I don't race, so a 4 speed with odd ratio's wouldn't bother me. What kind of driving do you plan to do?

This car will be a Saturday night crusier. I just like the idea of having a car with a stick, No racing in the plans, well with that said, once I get the car finished, I am planning to take it to the local drag strip for a Friday night fun and Test kinda thing, just for fun.

1FATGMC · December 10, 2006, 11:13:27 AM

Quote from: "msuguydon"I have to be honest, most of this post was way over my head, but Thanks for taking the time to share the information with me. I have no intent to race my car, it will be a Saturday night cruiser.

I am not sure if you are telling me that the gear ratios are gonna make it difficult to drive, are you telling me the gear ratios are close so it require a lot of shifting or are you telling me this ratio set-up is designed for a particular style or racing.

If you are willing, dumb it down a bit for the new guy.

What is your rear gear ratio now?? 1st gear with this transmission is quite high for a manual transmission so taking off in 1st and acceleration in 1st, won't be as good, but still probably quite livable. If your rear gear is under say 3.25 it is even going to be worst. With the auto you have the torque converter that will slip.

Once under way the the close ratios will make the other gears closer together and will not effect driving. 4th will be the same as any manual.

Hopefully someone who has driven one of these high first close ratio boxes in real life can jump in here.

c ya,

Sum

tomslik · December 10, 2006, 11:30:58 AM

sum, it ain't that big a deal IF you've got more than a 6cyl...

btw, i've had wide ratio m-21's....
i'll still trade;)

i got a feeling i may need a few 4 speeds;)

reborn55 · December 11, 2006, 11:31:36 PM

If your car was an automatic originally then it probably has either 3:08 or 3:36 gears. I have run M-20 and M-21 Muncies with these gears in some of my tri-fives and a couple of Chevelles. Witht he 3:08 you would probably have slower acceleration and woudl be able to wind out the gears a lot longer and usually get better mileage with less of a strain on the motor. If you have the motor to pull it you should be all right. Either Muncie would work with maybe the wide ratio of the M-20 being a bit better witht he taller gears. I run the M-20 with 3:70 gears in my 55 and it gets to 70 nice and quick but cruises around 3700 rpm's. I have M-21 parts trans and spare M-20 sitting on shelf for spares. The Muncie is worth more than the turbo 350 and would be a better investment and more fun to drive. Just my opinion.