About those cars with computerized handling?

[Rayvyn]

I've always considered being alive a good thing, how about you?

Hey Carps,
Along those lines, what about some sort of interior safety feature geared towards children or pets being left in cars?

A couple of days ago, an idiot mother left her 3 year old in the car while she went into a local Wal-Mart. The windows were cracked about 1/2 inch, but with the heat index here in Florida up around 105*, it doesn't take long for a car to build up interior heat. Especially in a dark colored car the heat can rise to 140* easily. Luckily someone noticed the child in the car and called the Police right away. The kid was okay, a little heat exhaustion but no permanent injury.

The TSA uses "Sniffer" type technology in the airports now. It's a giant walk through sensor that emits dozens of puffs of air that surround a person standing inside the machine, then analyzes the air for chemical or biological residue that may be on the person.

If sensors similar to this in theory were located inside an automobile in conjunction with motion detectors, with the car off, the unit would sense movement or sound and upon the inside temp reaching a predetermined safety level, the unit would automatically lower the windows and activate the anti-theft alarm, allowing nearby people to investigate the situation and call authorities, and also lowering the inside temperature of the car before the risk of heatstroke and possible brain damage or death would occur to the child or pet.

Just a thought that occured after what happened. I just wanted to hear your take on it, and whether something like that already exists or is in the works.

Rayvyn

[Carps]

I have read the domestic vehicle computer  systems will detect parameters  ( rear tires spinning during a burn out) ... this will alert the 'abuse' section... then the throttle is rolled back via the computer controlled DBW system?

Yup, all computers have a memory, so the diagnostic technicians can figure out what caused the problem.  Fixing the cause is the only way to fix a problem, so that data is critical.

Of course for the 'factory' it can come in handy when push comes to shove.  like one memorable court case where a carmaker was sued after rejecting a warranty claim for a new engine on the basis of owner abuse.

The car in question was fitted with a low radiator coolant level indicator as well as electronic temp gauge and warning buzzers.  A shown to the court, all these warning systems worked correctly to alert the driver to the lack of coolent and then the fact that the engine was overheating.  The driver continued to oepreate the vehicle despite this and at WOT.  Of course the electronic engine management system went into it's 'limp' mode to allow him to continue to drive but at the same time minimising the risk of damage to the engine by restricting RPM and roadspeed until the temperature was such that it simply shut the car down.  After it cooled, the owner restarted, without adding coolant and continued to try and drive the car.  It shut down thee times beofore coolant was added.  Of course by now the engine was badlydamaged and it did not run correctly.  Ad the straw that broke the camel's back was to be operated without any load at WOT (we assume with the intention of severe damage that would not show ecvidence of the previous abuse) until it failed completely.

The magistrate found in the companies favour and awarded costs against the plaintiff advising him in his summary that he should be thankfull that he was not going to instruct the Police to charge him for attemted fraud.

GM has used a torque management system for years on the near WOT shifts with automatic trannys.... killing all spark advance , reducing tranny main line pressure to soften shifts

That is what we call 'Old technology'  

... and save the poor durability trannys they build.

An often asked question is why we don't fit certain transmissions to certain engines in certain applications but do in other applications.  Fact is we test everything to make sure it will not fail or at least to minimise the risk of failure, in service.  The strength of this approach shows in our reputation and our warranty claim/failure rate.  Of course we don't always get it 100% right, but the companies foundation stone remains what we call QDR (Quality first, which leads to Durability and reliability) which has served us well to this point and despite the fact that lately we have been pursuing style as a means to further improve sales, QDR and Kaizen remain the underlying objective for eveything we do.

Have you ever wondered why Toyota who spends so much more on research and delvelopment than most companies is rarely the pioneer of new technology?  Look back through our history and you'll see that we've always been one of the last.  We don't allow our customers to o our research for us, we let our competitors do it.  Of course there have been some exeptions, Hybrid and alternative fuels being the most notable in recent times, but even then the car didn't come to market until the bffins knew it was reliable.  Most of our products have around a five year gestation period, The Hybrid Prius took just over 25 years from the first prototype to production reality.

I am driving a rental GM trail blazer with DBW system.  I am not happy with the system as it acts on this one.   A bit mushy and delay'd response is noted... but then I am looking for a problem.

Can't say I'm familliar with that, but as technology moves forward, so too does response time, overall performance and reliability of these systems.  truly a case where the newer versions are definiteley better than the early stuff.

Thankfully we rented this inline 6 cylinder powered trailblazer for the drive to salt flats.... been thinking of a purchase of a 2006 SS Trailblazer.  The ergonomics suck of the console , shifter , cup holders. The console  shifter is in the way of most items. I am surprised I have not knocked the shifter out of " D " with my fore arm

Sometimes I'm amazed at the ergonomics of soem modern vehicles.  Again we spend huge amounts in time and money to get the ergnomics right.  Funny thing on that score is reading in the press how some journalist thinks a Lexus 'feels' too much like a Toyota because the controls all work the same way and are located in the same place.  reality is if the ergonomics are right then it's harrd to improve on them and we don't do stuff just to make it look good and especially not to gain the approval of some journalist.

On the other hand one key difference is the way the controls feel.  Y'see everybody has an expectation of what an expensive item should feel like and what a cheaper item will feel like in operation.  So the engineers also concentrate on weigting swtch springs and tollerances etc so the switches in a lexus feel like they belone in a $100k + car and those in a Corolla feel better than the same controls in a similarly priced car.  Fact is, some things ARE rocket science.  

Ergonomic design also takes into acount frequency of use and in the latest GS series Lexus this has been taken to the next level, with inrequently used switches and controls being removed from the dash panel altogether, with the driver pressing and ergonomically located button, to swing the switch panel out when those controls are required.

One new improvement has been moving from steering wheel mounted shift control buttons for manual operation of the transmissing, to F1 car type paddles on the back side of the stering wheel.  Operation of these is more logical and after only a hort time so natural that you wonder why it's taken so long.

If you drive a cr with a soundly designed foot operated parking brake, when you get back into one with a pull lever on the console it'll take onger to get used to using it again that your foot operated system.  Why?  Because the foot system is ergonomcally more sound.

I could go on and on, but think maybe I should quite while I'm ahead.  

[Carps]

I've always considered being alive a good thing, how about you?

Hey Carps,
Along those lines, what about some sort of interior safety feature geared towards children or pets being left in cars?

Children and pets should NEVER be left unattended in any car, windows open or windows closed.

We have a numer of features from trans lockouts to ignition switch security desined to minimise the risks when this happens,  But the bottom line remains that we can't develop technology to completely overcome human stupidity.

And there's a lot more risk than just heatstroke.  Like how many cars get stolen in your town each day?  We had one just this week where a young child left ina car was taken by a car theif after an idiot parent not only left the kid in the car, but the keys in the ignition.  "But I was only in the shop for a few seconds!"  NO EXCUSE!  It only took the theif a few seconds to steal your car and child, it only takes a peodophile a few seconds to turn it into a complete catastrophe.   The only thing worse is leaving your toddler unattended in a stroler outside the shop door.  Why not just put a sign on your kid, "Dear pedophiles I'm yours, please take me".  Some perople are just not fit to be parents, or grandparents and that's all there is to it.

OOOPS sorry, pet rant.

A couple of days ago, an idiot mother left her 3 year old in the car while she went into a local Wal-Mart. The windows were cracked about 1/2 inch, but with the heat index here in Florida up around 105*, it doesn't take long for a car to build up interior heat. Especially in a dark colored car the heat can rise to 140* easily. Luckily someone noticed the child in the car and called the Police right away. The kid was okay, a little heat exhaustion but no permanent injury.

In this country that is considered a criminal act carrying a serious fine and potential jail term.

The TSA uses "Sniffer" type technology in the airports now. It's a giant walk through sensor that emits dozens of puffs of air that surround a person standing inside the machine, then analyzes the air for chemical or biological residue that may be on the person.

Here, they also use little wands to get right inside your luggage to check for 'chemical residue'  I'm always amazed at the way people complain about being subjected to this.  Especially considering those people would also be the first to whine if some fanatic managed to slip thru the same security net and blow up their 'plane.  But then I guess the rest of us wouldn't have to listen to them, although the airlines would have to deal with their families lawsuits etc.

If sensors similar to this in theory were located inside an automobile in conjunction with motion detectors, with the car off, the unit would sense movement or sound and upon the inside temp reaching a predetermined safety level, the unit would automatically lower the windows and activate the anti-theft alarm, allowing nearby people to investigate the situation and call authorities, and also lowering the inside temperature of the car before the risk of heatstroke and possible brain damage or death would occur to the child or pet.

Many cars do already feature such technology.  Problem is, it's purpose is to protect the car from teft or breakin etc and it cant tell the difference bwteeen a crook or a child left inside by a stupid parent.  So it's function is usually not to open the windows but to close them and make sure the doors are locked and ignition system isolated to make it as hard as possible for the car to be stolen.

On the other hand, there's Telematics, which is now widely available so that if you are trapped inside your car in a dangerous situation you can press a button, usually located on the rear vision mirror for instant help.  The telematics operator can do many things from unlocking doors to opening windows, and if the car is so equipped, remotely starting the engine to activate air conditioning etc.  But of course the poor victims of parental stupidy are usually too young to be able to operate this technology or if they are smarter than the idiot who left them in the car, their paws don't provide the dexterity to push the button, nor do they have the ability to speak to the operators when they respond.

Just a thought that occured after what happened. I just wanted to hear your take on it, and whether something like that already exists or is in the works.

It's really a situation that we should not even have to consider.  However, so long as allegedly intelligent adults continue to act with less intelligence than their 'victims' (A.K.A. Children, offspring, pets, etc.) then I guess it's a topic that will continue to be discussed.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

The Trail Blazer  we are driving this week is a 2005...... GM's current best on the DBW throttle.  It functions OK , I prefer  a mechanical connected throttle.

Did I mention the inline  4200 six cylinder motor is near useless for travel in the mountains?  I've buzzed the motor to 6k on the rpm indicator  in 2nd gear.  Not enough motor for the weight of the extended Trail Blazer


REgarding kids in parked cars.... we have several every year that die in the Arizona heat.  The law enforcement folks prosecute them.  We have an illegal mexican national woman in jail for the death of her niece that was left in a car for 5 hours in the heat.

Similar laws apply to animals in parked cars

[enjenjo]

Some time back we had a class 8 truck with some engine problems. we were checking the operating history, and found that the truck had been driven 123 mph some months before. This didn't impact the problem we were having, it was a faulty injector, but the info was there.

This was suprizing, given the fact that the engine is equipped with a road speed governor that limits the speed to 62 mph, no matter what gear the trans is in. It means the driver was coasting down hill with the trans in neutral, not real conductive to good control. Further investigation, a cross check with dispatch records, showed us that the truck was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike when this occurred, near Somerset PA. Amazing what you can learn with the right tools.

[Carps]

This was suprizing, given the fact that the engine is equipped with a road speed governor that limits the speed to 62 mph, no matter what gear the trans is in. It means the driver was coasting down hill with the trans in neutral, not real conductive to good control. Further investigation, a cross check with dispatch records, showed us that the truck was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike when this occurred, near Somerset PA. Amazing what you can learn with the right tools.

Yup, and more proof that stupidity will figure out how to override technology quicker than intelligence.  

[Carps]

The Trail Blazer  we are driving this week is a 2005...... GM's current best on the DBW throttle.  It functions OK , I prefer  a mechanical connected throttle.

You should be able to recalibrate for better, more instant response.  I find it particularly good in LandCruiser etc, when operating in ow range on serious off road tracks, especially rocks etc. where although the driver is being jostled around inside the vehicle, the throttle operation remains smooth and easily controlled.

Did I mention the inline  4200 six cylinder motor is near useless for travel in the mountains?  I've buzzed the motor to 6k on the rpm indicator  in 2nd gear.  Not enough motor for the weight of the extended Trail Blazer

How heavy is the truck?  When does the torque peak? i'd have thought such an engine would have high peak torque and it would be programed to deliever maximum and fairly low engine RPMs.  The sthrength of our new common rail direct injection Diesels is that they can be calibrated to deliver peak torque from just above idle all the way to peak RPMs.  They pull like a train in high gear for highway overtaking and on steep hills and off road are simply sensational.  I think they are already available in your Tacom Pick up range, worth a look if you want pulling power and economy.  They run almost as quiet as a petrol engine at highway speeds.

REgarding kids in parked cars.... we have several every year that die in the Arizona heat.  The law enforcement folks prosecute them.  We have an illegal mexican national woman in jail for the death of her niece that was left in a car for 5 hours in the heat.

Hope they charged her with murder, cosz manslaughter just doesn't cut it for someone who does that to a child.

Similar laws apply to animals in parked cars

Yup ,same here.  Worst case is people leaving their kids in locked car at Casino parking lot. (no seedy peaople hanging around there - yeah sure!) whilst they 'pop' inside for a small wager or to play the slot machines.

[jaybee]

Had another thought on this subject.  This whole hot rod thing has always had a healthy component of putting "the latest and greatest" (read "fastest") components out of today's cars into yesterday's body styles.  This would be sacrilege on the HAMB or other traditional boards, but in my opinion EFI engines, overdrive automatics, and creature comforts like air conditioning and cruise control have been critical to the current popularity of rodding.  Rail if you will against these new-style cars, but the more rods there are out there, regardless of style and detail, the better off the car hobby becomes.

Enough miles on the Rambler, on to my question.  Have new cars reached a level where the technology is just too complicated to incorporate into vintage iron?  Will builders with new skills like being able to hack the computers see to it that "the latest and greatest" will continue to be a part of rodding?  The tuner crowd manages to do a lot with new cars that look like they ought to be very difficult to modify.  Who's going to jump that line and bring those talents to Slant Backs and Roadster Pickups?

[Carps]

Had another thought on this subject.  This whole hot rod thing has always had a healthy component of putting "the latest and greatest" (read "fastest") components out of today's cars into yesterday's body styles.  This would be sacrilege on the HAMB or other traditional boards, but in my opinion EFI engines, overdrive automatics, and creature comforts like air conditioning and cruise control have been critical to the current popularity of rodding.  Rail if you will against these new-style cars, but the more rods there are out there, regardless of style and detail, the better off the car hobby becomes.

Amen to that brother Jeybee!

Enough miles on the Rambler, on to my question.  Have new cars reached a level where the technology is just too complicated to incorporate into vintage iron?  Will builders with new skills like being able to hack the computers see to it that "the latest and greatest" will continue to be a part of rodding?  The tuner crowd manages to do a lot with new cars that look like they ought to be very difficult to modify.  Who's going to jump that line and bring those talents to Slant Backs and Roadster Pickups?

reality is, cars today continue to be built basically the sme way they have been for many years.  heck most of the are built in the same plants that were building the originals we've since hot rodded.

Even with Prius, there were a number of requirements to make it fit.  One was that it had to be able to be built in a normal car plant.  Another was it must use the existing refueling infrastsructure.  Another, regardless of the technology it must be as easy to drive as a normal car using controls that are common and familliar to everybody..  Fact is, you could chuck the steering wheel and pedals away and drive the sucker with a single joystick, to controll everything, just that the greater unwashed (that's us) are not yet ready for that big a change.

As for all the new technology being able to be easiliy adapted to our oldd cars.  Yup, no problem, all ya gotta do is what we did for the new ones.  just figure out where to put all the bits, make a wiing loom to tie it all together and go driving.  Compare your old ride to the shiney new daily driver parked in your driveway and you'll notice more similarities that differences.  

Yup avereything is doable, it's just a question of determination, skill and of course funding, coz technology don't come cheap.

[flt-blk]

I think all this technology is great.  
My A4 has wireless throttle, once I got used to it's idiosyncracies It is OK.

My two complaints.

1)Cruise control on and you go to accelerate, I press the pedal 1/2 way
before the car responds, I understand what it is doing, just feels weird.

2) It won't let me left foot brake, if it gets throttle AND brake signals,
after a couple seconds it settles the conflict by only recognizing the
brake.  First time I found this out was on the street at the apex of a turn
and I was settling the car with a little trail braking and lost power.   I
almost went over a curb on that one.

I was hoping my APR reprogramed ECU would change this function, but it
didn't.

Keep up the good work Carps, and congratulation on the great showing
in F1 .

[Carps]

I think all this technology is great.  
My A4 has wireless throttle, once I got used to it's idiosyncracies It is OK.

That's more a matter of calibration.

1)Cruise control on and you go to accelerate, I press the pedal 1/2 way before the car responds, I understand what it is doing, just feels weird.

Again that's usually a calibration issue based on what the designer/engineers know abi=out how the vehicle is likely to be used.

2) It won't let me left foot brake,

The assumption must always be that if the driver applies the brakes he/she wants to slow down or stop.  Thus the brake will always override other elements, epecially cruise control.

Left foot braking is not something I reccommend for normal driving.  However, it is qhuit useful to balance a caar when driving in competition or at high speed, especially on loose surfaces.  In such circumstances the key here is driving.  By that I mean you shouldn't be using cruise control in these situations, you shoud be concentrating on driving and enjoying the car yourself.

Another time when crusie control should not be used is when it's raining or in slippery conditions.  Problem here is that the system needs to read the rodspeed and any hint of aquaplaning may make the control unit think the caar has lost road speed and so it will open the throttle butterfly wider, as soon as the slipping tyre gets some grip back..... WHOA BABY! you are off on a wild adveture and it's probably going to get scary.

I was hoping my APR reprogramed ECU would change this function, but it
didn't.

Keep up the good work Carps, and congratulation on the great showing
in F1 .[/quote]

[flt-blk]

By that I mean you shouldn't be using cruise control in
these situations, you shoud be concentrating on driving and enjoying the
car yourself.

No cruise on the track or during "Spirited" driving, I try to keep that on
the track not on the street, but sometimes it happens.  

For the record I rarley use the Cruise unless it's a long trip or I have an
officer behind me.   In the rain I usually leave it in 5th instead of
6th gear so I have some maneuvering power.

As far as enjoying the car, there is nothing like a 4 wheel drift through a
90mph sweeper in an AWD car (Texas World Speedway road course).  

I just wish brakes weren't so expensive. :cry:

[entodad]

Responding to the part of this thread about fly by wire.  The major difference I see about fly by wire in a commercial airplane and a run of the mill auto is maintence... The plane receives frequent inspections, upgrades etc. etc.  Autos on the other hand are driven without preflight inspections, frequently they only receive repair after a failure, rather than seeing a part about to fail and replaceing it proactively.

I am a big fan of the electronic FI and other management things that improve the power of the engine. But that is all.  Antilock brakes, I have three trucks that have thwarted my attempts to fix them, only a complete replacement of the management equipment (quite pricey) will fix them.  Works great when it is working, but what about when it fails (not if).

For sure I don't want any electronic connection between me and my brakes, steering, and throttle.

[Carps]

Responding to the part of this thread about fly by wire.  The major difference I see about fly by wire in a commercial airplane and a run of the mill auto is maintence... The plane receives frequent inspections, upgrades etc. etc.  Autos on the other hand are driven without preflight inspections, frequently they only receive repair after a failure, rather than seeing a part about to fail and replaceing it proactively.

So who's fault is that?  The automaker or the owner?  

Fact is, the mechanical connections can go just as wrong as a result of wear and/or poor maintenance, and there's usually NO BACK-UP in an automotive mechanical connection/system.  On the other hand, all the drive by wire systems (at least all those that I'm familliar with) have self diagnosing functions and some kind of failsafe mecanical backup, 'just in case' something goes wrong.  Thus, it remains my educated and ever so humble opinion, that electronic systems with mechanical back-up are a better deal than a mecanical system with no back-up, especially in automobiles that are likely to be poorly maintained.

I am a big fan of the electronic FI and other management things that improve the power of the engine.

Most electronic engine management systems are there for more than just extra power.  In fact the purpose of these systems is to manage the power, not so much provide more, but provide only what's needed for any given set of driving circumstances.  Additionally, they help reduce tailpipe emissions and fuel consumption.  They can also be used in combination with other systems, to help keep the car on the road when it all turns to faeces for the driver, by retarding power and controlling torque deliverey to the drive wheels.

Antilock brakes, I have three trucks that have thwarted my attempts to fix them, only a complete replacement of the management equipment (quite pricey) will fix them.

I'm not familliar with the constant need to be fixing things that have gone wrong with the modern automobile.  Then again, the policy at my company is that we do the research and development, not our customers.  Last thing we want to see is cars back in our dealer workshops for unscheduled maintenance.  That is not profitable business.  On the other hand, customers in for scheduled maintenenance is both profitable and good for business, because it usually means the same customers are less likely to be starnded on the side of the road by a car or truck that's ceased to proceed.

Works great when it is working, but what about when it fails (not if).

See comments re scheduled maintenance.  Most things that fail do so because they are either worn out or poorly maintained, often both.  There's a reson why we recommend certain items be replaced as a matter of course at specified mileage.

Reminds me of something that happened recently.

A pal rang to see if I could help his mate who was in deep doo doos.  Seems his LandCruise turbo Diesel had broken it's camshaft and his mechanic told him this was common with these things coz they are junk.

I started with a question.
"Is the camshaft broken in three places, adjacent to the bearing bosses?"
Reply, "Yeah, guess it must be common problem for you to know that?
Me, "Yeah sort of, but not a flaw in the design.  I figure it's just recently had a 140,000km service?"
Reply, "Yeah, just last week.
Me, "Your mate didn't replacee the timing belt as specified in the owners handbook?"
Reply, "Nah, his mechanic said it looked OK and a waste of time & money to replace it now."
Me,"Have you taken the timing cover off to check the belt?"
Reply, "Yeah, the belt is shredded."
Me, "Yeah, I figred it would be.  That's why the camshaft broke, just like the engineers designed it, so that when the timing belt breaks you only end up needing a new camshaft and belt, not new pistons, valves, crankshaft or more."

So, to save a couple hundred bux by ignoring an item that was down to be replaced at 140,000 kms, my pal's buddy ended up with a nasty repai bill, but if the camshaft didn't break, it likely would have been a $3,000 plus bill.

Y'see there's also a reason why this guy's mechanic reckons this is a common problem with these engines, seems he sees a lot more of em in this condition than most (Our National Parts Division sells only about a dozen of these camshafts each year) coz most of them that he 'looks after' end up breaking camshafts just after the 140,000km service.  Maybe one day he'll figure it out, but I don't know any that have had the problem after following the recommended maintenance schedule.

For sure I don't want any electronic connection between me and my brakes, steering, and throttle.

I'm quite happy to have them.  One of my current favourites is laser guided cruise control.  This system maintains a safe braking distance between my car and  any traffic ahead of me.  Simply set the speed at say 110 and if the traffic in front slows to 90, so do i, even if I'm not concentrating 100% on what's happening.  If somebody cuts in and brakes hard, before I can react, the car has already closed the electronic throttle, AND applied it's own brakes to help me avoid running into the back of the clown in front.

Lots of interstate highway accidents happen because driver's concentration tends to wander when using cruise to maintain highway speed.  Kinda makes me feel good to know that the car is going to look after me.  Yup, even if I was to nod off and the car veered off the road, as soon as it 'see's the tress, the throttle is closed, the brakes applied and a warning buzzer sounds to wake me up.  Any other car and I wouldn't wake up untill I hit the trees, perhaps i wouldn't wake up at all.

Even better, the system is linked to the rain sensing wipers (they operate automatically when water hits the windscree.  Mine are really clever and vary the blade speed and wiping frequency dependent on the volume of water and road speed of the car.  And the really realy clever bit is that they use the computer to control the blade speed and slow it down before it stops at the end of a sweep, fliping the blade over as it changes direction so that it's at the right angle for maximum contact on the glass and cleaning performance as the blade heads back in the opposite direction.  Another upside of this syetem is that it's completely silent, no more slapping wipers.... but I digress) so that cruise control is automatically disengaged when it starts to rain, reducing the risk of aquaplaning which would then requre the ATRAC and VSC systems to activate in order to the car under control and on the black stuff.

Yup, far as I'm concerned, used wisely, technoloy is good.  The way I see it, anything that can allow us to fly like birds, take us into space and beyond, predict bad weather and make the world a smaller place, has to be good.  And, continuous development will keep us all independently and personally mobile long after the oil runs out.