Way off topic...Table Saw questions

purplepickup · April 09, 2005, 11:17:37 PM

I'm starting to build a camping trailer and I've wanted a table saw so it seems like a good time to get one. At first I thought I'd get a cheap one but after talking to people that use saws a fair amount, I was convinced that there are a few things that the cheaper saws don't have. Accuracy and power being two important things. The saw I get doesn't have to be the best but I do want it to make quality cuts and last me a long time. A lot of people feel that Delta makes a good saw so I've looked online for reviews and good prices.

I've learned what to look for in a quality miter gauge, frames, table, and rip fence but I'm really confused about the motor ratings. What is the difference in performance and reliability between an induction and a brush motor? On the Delta website the upper end saws have induction motors but the hp rating is lower than brush motors until you get up into the 230V motors. Typically the $200 and less saws rate a 13amp brush motor at 2.5 hp and a 15amp brush motor at 3hp.

The saw I was looking at is the Delta TS350 and it has an induction motor but it is only rated at 1hp. The reviews all say great things about this saw for the money and don't mention anything about it being underpowered. I can get one for $339 delivered and at first I thought it was a good deal since they run over $500 list but I'm not sure because I don't understand the power ratings.

I did a search to see what these terms mean in "my world" but the descriptions were even hard to understand. Can anyone describe these ratings so that I can tell what kind of performance to expect?

Another thing that seems to be important to some people is whether or not the saw is belt driven or direct drive.

I think asking woodworkers what saw to buy is like asking you guys what's better....Chevy, Mopar, or Ford . :?

1FATGMC · April 09, 2005, 11:25:11 PM

George do you have or have you considered a radial saw? I've used both and like my radial saw a lot better than a table saw. When I taught shop classes I had a couple good table saws in the shop and liked them, but once I got a Sears Radial saw I liked it a lot better for 90% of the cutting and it takes up a lot less space in the shop as it can be mounted on a wall and not out in the middle of the floor.

I think mine is a couple hp, but I'm not sure about that. If you are ripping 2 by material the hp is nice and important. I'm not sure what my motor is, but it takes for ever to stop.

I've had mine since the 70's and I've done a lot of building with it.

c ya, Sum

unklian · April 10, 2005, 12:08:01 AM

Radial Arm Saws are a love them or hate them sort of thing.
GREAT for cross cutting,
any other operation is a serious compromise,IMHO.

If I could only have one saw,it would be a table saw.

I think my table saw is 3/4 hp.
If I was buying a new machine,I would definately prefer an induction motor,with a cast iron table and extensions.

First choice is a Besimier(sp) fence.
Crude but effective.

The good Delta fence is nice.

Leon · April 10, 2005, 02:09:23 AM

George - I have both a table saw and radial arm saw. I used the radial a lot when I was building, and it works great for crosscuts but I love my table saw for doing work where I want a little more accuracy. It has an extension table that I can put one of my routers in for use as a router table. I agree that the fence is a key point. I bought a Sears with cast table and their top of the line fence. It is a lot sturdier than the sheet metal tables, and the fence stays square and is solid. If you're cutting plywood almost any motor will handle it, but if you want to use dado blades the horsepower starts to factor in. A good sturdy table can also usually have extension rollers added to support bigger pieces as they come off the blade. I don't like either type of saw better than the other, but for doing cabinet type work, I think the table is better.

Bruce Dorsi · April 10, 2005, 02:25:07 AM

You're right, George, everyone WILL have a different opinion, so here's mine:

(1) I have mostly Rockwell/Delta industrial woodworking machines (1977 vintage) and I wouldn't part with them.

However, Delta homeowner-grade products have suffered the same fate as many competitive brands, in that quality has been cheapened over the years, and production has moved offshore.

Before you buy ANY saw, try to see it close-up. ....I normally trust my own instincts, yet the reviews are helpful.

Two brands which I think offer a good product for the price are Grizzly and Ridgid. ....The Ridgid saws can be seen at Home Depot. ....Unless you know someone with a Grizzly, I don't think you have a Grizzly store near you. ....The Grizzly saws are from Taiwan, but their quality has improved over the years, and the company stands behind them. .....I'm not sure if the Ridgid saws are made in the USA, or if they are now imported as well.

(2) Radial-Arm vs Table saw is an ongoing debate. ....I have both, and each has its merit. ....Depending on your needs and intended uses, one may be better suited than the other. .....Cutting 2X lumber to length is best done on the radial-arm, but most types of cabinetry are easier on a table saw.
......If I could only own one, I'd go with a tablesaw.

(3) The key to getting a quality CUT is to buy a QUALITY blade! ...For BEST results, you will need a RIP blade for cutting with the grain, and a Fine-toothed blade for CROSS-cutting. ...Good quality carbide-tipped blades can cost $70-$100 each. ....As always, you get what you pay for, and blades are no exception. I learned this through experience! ....Combination blades are satisfactory for general use, but for fine woodworking, you should use dedicated blades. ....If you will be cutting much plywood, you will want a fine-toothed blade to get a decent cut. .....I'd also suggest staying with carbide-tipped blades ONLY!

(4) As I understand things, the HP ratings of brush-type (aka universal) motors are hyped for customer appeal. ....I believe the HP ratings are for "peak," but they do not deliver this normally. ....Amp ratings are a better indicator of power on brush-type motors.

In contrast, induction motors are rated more realistically, and I believe are held to stricter regulations in their ratings.

If you have the choice, I'd suggest you get an induction motor.

(5) A belt-drive saw will generally be quieter and smoother than a direct-drive saw. ....This does not apply to radial-arm saws, as I don't think there is a belt-driven unit for a small saw.

(6) Something else to consider with tablesaws, is their weight. If it must be portable, you'll probably want to forego the cast-iron tables. Otherwise, added weight is a plus, to help dampen vibrations.

(7)A light-weight saw must be fastened to a tabletop or something to be stable. ....If you try to feed thick, or large pieces through the saw, the saw may move if it is not secured.

(

Ironically, if you're working with sheets of plywood, it is more convenient to use a portable circular saw to cut them down to size, than to wrestle them thru a radial-arm or juggle them on a small tablesaw.

I'm sure you have already considered many of these points, but I mention them "just-in-case."

purplepickup · April 10, 2005, 03:23:33 AM

Thank you Bruce. I always value your opinions. After a little more research and posts here and some other boards, I agree that Grizzly makes a good saw and a G0444 would be my choice but it's just a tad more than I want to pay and the Delta 36-675 is real comparable. I can get that one for $475 delivered. It's a 1.5hp belt drive induction motor and it's got a 2 year warantee. I said to heck with it and ordered it. I've got a $200 check coming back from IRS.

Funny how I started out around $175 and ending up almost $500. Tools can be dangerously addictive.....gotta call "tools annonymous". I'll have to make lots of bird houses and picture frames.

As far as radial arm saws, my dad had a Dewalt and it's real nice but my mom wants to keep it at her house. I go out there and use it but for home I think I want a table saw.

This is the one I ordered.

C9 · April 10, 2005, 09:18:57 AM

Lotsa good advice here so I'll just add a couple of things.

Take a look at the Ryobi 10" at Home Depot.
If you buy it, spring for the extra's, the flip-up cutting board hinged at the back of the saw, the 4' table extension to the right, long fence etc.
The Ryobi also has a place for a router so that takes care of getting a router table plus you have the fence et al of the saw to help with router accuracy.

I made up a rolling frame from 1 x 2" rectangular tubing with threaded weld bungs that support both saw and table.
That allows the saw to be rolled out to the center of the shop making big projects more convenient and to be rolled back into it's corner when not in use. (Cept for cutting small stuff.)

I had a 12" radial prior to the Ryobi and liked it, but a table saw is nicer for furniture type products.
Having said that, I miss the radial arm saw and will probably get another somewhere down the road.

If you've been using a radial arm saw, you'll have to instill some slightly different safety mechanisms within yourself.
The main one being the blade's on the table and radial saw guys tend to move stuff on the table after the cut and while the radial blade is spinning down.
You can't do some things with the blade safety guard installed.

Buy some quality blades as well. Carbide preferred.

Far as dadoes go, I tried the 'wobble' dado and didn't like the vibration it set up. Got a 'stack' dado and I like it a lot better.
Best of all is cutting dadoes with a router using a clamped on guide.
Using the router on the saw to cut the dado is another option.

GPster · April 10, 2005, 09:23:53 AM

Quote from: "purplepick
This is the one I ordered.

Just don't use it til you get off the crutches. GPster

Sean · April 10, 2005, 10:39:08 AM

Quote from: "purplepickup"

This is the one I ordered.

Thats the same one my Grandpa has. I have used it several times, and while it seems to have plenty of power, you have to keep an eye on the fence. You can't just lock it down and go because it can be as much as 1/8" off from one end to the other.

That may be the case with all of the home-style table saws though, I don't know. The only other one I ever used was in Shop class back when I was in High School. I don't know what it was(it was green

and huge), but when you locked it down it was right on the money every time.

1FATGMC · April 10, 2005, 12:23:04 PM

Well as the "lone" radial saw lover here I'll have to add to my case.

It is really hard to crosscut longer boards on a table saw square. Anything very long is really hard to push through the blade with the slide and keep it square.

I disagree that it is hard to rip on a radial saw. I've added the two table on both sides of my saw (they remove in a second with 2 nails in each that pin them to the table). With those two sides you can take pieces of lumber 10-16 feet long and rip them really easily as they are supported at both ends of the cut. The end supports are still out of the way and don't take up floor space and can be removed in just a second.

Likewise cutting a full sheet of plywood by yourself you just support one side with the end tables and push it through and you have a ''fixed" fence at the back. With a table saw you are still going to have to lenghten the table some way to rip large pieces and widen it in the other to crosscut as the blade is fixed.

If I had the room and money, sure I would have both, but if you can only have one I still say the radial arm saw is more versitile and easier to work with and takes up way less space in the shop as it is not out in the middle of the floor.

Right now when I'm mocking up the frame for my lakester and the saw is just to the left of it out of the picture. It is out of the way with the rest of shop still available, yet I am able to cut all the lumber for this project.

Ok, I'll shut up and let you table saw guys rule

.

c ya, Sum

P.S. If you do get that table saw spend $99.00 and get the HF 10 inch "slide" compound miter saw for your cross-cuts. I built my house with that and it does a really nice job.

Lakester Construction In
Progress

purplepickup · April 10, 2005, 01:02:29 PM

Sum, that's a really good idea...and job well done, to mock up your frame out of wood. It makes it easy to make changes and tweak things to fit. I know you've wanted to build a lakester for a long time. It's good to see it really happening. I'll bet you're getting excited about the final build.

I agree with what you say about radial arm saws, but I will probably inherit my dad's Dewalt someday. For now mom just wants to leave his shop set up. I think it gives her comfort to have that to remind her of him. I've used that saw a lot and when dad was alive I did borrow it when I built the addition to my house. It did everything I wanted.

I still like a table saw too and have always been a closet woodworker so while I'm still working I'm stocking up on tools to make my retirement fun. Besides, this trailer is going to be a major woodworking project with lots of laminations and such so I needed a decent saw to use now.

I've been fighting this $59 Rockwell Homecraft saw for over 30 years and anything will be an improvement. I really do have to whack the rip fence with a 2x4 or a deadblow hammer to move it because the sheet metal table is dented. You can guess how accurate that is

1FATGMC · April 10, 2005, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: "purplepickup"Sum, that's a really good idea...and job well done, to mock up your frame out of wood. It makes it easy to make changes and tweak things to fit. I know you've wanted to build a lakester for a long time. It's good to see it really happening. 'll bet you're getting excited about the final build.

Yep it is really good to be working on the car and starting to see something that looks like a car, even if it is wood. Using the wood has been really good as I've already made a number of changes and will do somemore today. I'm hoping I can remove pieces of wood one at a time and replace them one at a time with the steel frame members.

BTW where is the guard on that saw and your blade is set too high

.

c ya, Sum

enjenjo · April 10, 2005, 01:18:58 PM

I agree with you Sum, I used to cut lumber for a living in a mill shop, spending 8 to 10 hours a day. we had both types, a 10" table saw, and a 16" radial arm, both DeWalt industrial. The table saw would work you to death, and on certain cuts was much harder to control. When I bought my own saw, it was a 10" Craftsman industrial. The key to getting straight cuts with a radial arm is setting the saw up correctly, once that is done, it will cut as good as any table saw. The only thing a table saw does better in my opinion, is cut dados, it will never cut them too deep, which can be a problem with a radial arm. Heck, I even used an abrasive blade in my radial arm to cut roll bar tubing, and fishmouth the ends, before I got a metal saw.

By the way, you ever price a 16" carbide blade? In the 70's they were over $800.

purplepickup · April 10, 2005, 01:30:05 PM

Quote from: "1FATGMC"BTW where is the guard on that saw and your blade is set too high .

c ya, Sum

The guard has been missing for at least 27 years and the blade is up that high because the last job I did was to make mom's mailbox post out of 4x4's. Besides, it's a lot easier to hit it with your finger when it's that high.

Canuck · April 10, 2005, 02:04:11 PM

Keep that old Rockwell, put a abrasive metal cutting blade in it, nice to cut brackets and anything else you need.

Been doing that for years with a old home built table saw and love it. Problem is the motor has toasted and it need bearings now. Not bad for a saw that was built in the 40's though.