Ethanol fuel at Indy?

[Mr Cool]

I dont know whether there is a debate on ethanol fuels over there in the USA, but here in Aus there has been one going for some time, some good and some bad points.
Anyway, this release tells the story that Ive been waiting to hear for some time, Indy cars will have 100% ethanol fuel powered cars by 2007.
Methanol fumes bring tears to the eyes, but Ethanol? Now THATS progress.
How well it will work is yet to be seen, but it might get those greenies off our backs for some time.

http://www.environmentalmanagementnews.net/StoryView.asp?StoryID=35659

Wadda ya rekon?

[enjenjo]

No real debate, we have had ethanol in most of our fuel for some time. The only debate lately has been if the oil companies have to tell you if, and how much ethanol is in it. It is now optional in most states to tell the consumer if the fuel has been altered with ethanol. They can use up to 10 percent without saying anything here in Ohio. In EPA nonattainment areas thay can use more. There are two ethanol plants being built within 20 miles of me as we speak, to make it from corn. The neat thing is, the corn can still be used for animal feed after it's used to make ethanol.

[58Apache]

Frank, what was it they used in the 60's that brought the octane up to levels at the pump of well over 100 ? They called some of it "Ethyl"

Does Ethenol really do what some of the folk lore said.....dry out rubber fuel lines and other rubber seals etc.  Don't mechanical fuel pumps use a piece of rubber for the main thing that causes a vacuum to pump the fuel from the tank?

I was looking at some gasoline in a clear container a few weeks ago. It sure looks, and smells, a lot different than what I remember from the 60's.

                                                           Steve

[Mr Cool]

We too have had ethanol added to our fuel, only a year or so back we had a battle of the fuel refineries telling us there was no ethanol added (later proven to be false by lab testing), many service stations even went to great lengths to advertise "NO ETHANOL" policies.
Apparently there were cars just breaking down for no apparent reason and it was blamed on the ethanol added which was stuffing up the rubber hoses and seals etc.
There was also another similar rip-off several years ago when they were adding paint thinners to fuel as it wasnt taxed and they could allegedly make more money from it. Its now taxed accordingly so the govt get their slice, it cleaned up the fuel industry, but thats a whole other story.
I know of a "green-fuel" movement over here, actively promoting the benefits and running their cars on straight 100% ethanol with some apparent easy conversions. some even claiming huge power figures with modified engines. I know its possible, but the real cost?
There has also been a debate over this "real" cost, claiming that the transport of raw material - ie corn, then the processing etc required is not enough gains to make it the green fuel its meant to be.
I'll dig up some references for you if interested.

[purplepickup]

Frank, what was it they used in the 60's that brought the octane up to levels at the pump of well over 100 ? They called some of it "Ethyl"

Steve

The term "ethyl" came from tetraethyl lead, an anti-knock compound.  I'm not a chemist but ethyl chloride was used to break down lead so it would suspend in gasoline and burn to elimanate spark knock....or something like that.  :?   But it didn't have anything to do with burning ethanol.

[rumrumm]

It has been a long time since I have heard the term "ethyl".  I used to run that premium gas in my 59 Chevy back in high school--had a 327 Corvette engine with 11.25:1 compression. It did not like my dad's tractor gas. I remember it used to cost me 26 cents per gallon at the DX station.

[unklian]

The pumps at Sunoco in the States show "contains 10% Ethanol"
or something similar.In Michigan,each grade is listed seperately.

In Canada,the pumps at Sunoco state "may contain up to 10% Ethanol".

Most gas station chains do not use Ethanol in their fuel up here.
We did have a LOT of problems with high levels of Sulphur in fuel damaging the fuel senders on GM cars,Sunoco was not involved.

I havn't heard of any complaints that could be tied directly
to Ethanol in Gasoline.But I do know if the percentage gets too high,
it will lean the mixture out excessively.

[kb426]

Methanol is around 160 octane. Ethanol is 120 octane. They both will attack some forms of rubber and are corrosive.  Methanol is highly hygroscopic.

[Mikej]

Daryle bought a 55 chevy, not to long ago, that had been sitting for a while. I believe he had some gasohol  run thru it that caused all sorts of problems. But it because it cleans all the varnish out of the gas tank, lines and carb. I don't think ethanol causes any problems in new cars other than that. I believe methanol is hard on rubber and aluminum.
If you check your owners manual, your car may even be able to run on 85% alcohol.  
We have been using it in Iowa for years and it doesn't cause any problems unless your like Daryle and find a car thats been stored for years.

[moparrodder]

If you check your owners manual, your car may even be able to run on 85% alcohol.  
We have been using it in Iowa for years and it doesn't cause any problems unless your like Daryle and find a car thats been stored for years.

  You're right Mike, there are a few stations that have pumps marked E-85 and there are more vechicles that can run on this high of blend.  I work for a grain elevator and my boss is the president of the new alcohol plant being built in Denison wich will be a dry processing plant and will process corn to get the alcohol and will have byproducts of millers grain that will be used for livestock feed, corn oil and CO-2 that will be used for refrigerent in packing plants and cold storeages.  When I used to tractor pull a lot in the mid 70's I ran a 50% blend of regular gas and alcohol in my old Massey Harris 44 and ran it that way into the 90's and never had a problem with it.  It sure made it run better and had a bunch more power and you're right when you said it cleans out the system, but once it's cleaned out you should'nt have any problems. Heck we even use it in our firetrucks and ambulances at the fire dept. without any problems, it burns cleaner and should help with the enviorment and help cut back on the dependency of fossil fuels.    Bill

[Beck]

Frank, what was it they used in the 60's that brought the octane up to levels at the pump of well over 100 ? They called some of it "Ethyl"

                                                           Steve

I work for Ethyl Corp! Actually the name was changed last July. It is now Afton Chemical. We made tetraethyl lead in LA. That facility has been shut down for quite some time. Afton still sells tetraethyl lead. Most of it goes to the middle east and 3rd world countries. Some of the racing fuel in the US still has it I believe. None is available for highway use in the US. Afton is in the oil additive,and transmission fluid bossiness. We make  additive packages for many of the major oil companies. We developed a new fuel additive a few years ago. There was a similarly named additive of someone elses that was a health hazard. The big 3 auto manufacturers lobbied in the capital to disallow it. They had enough pull to stop it in the US. Canada used it for a while, then the Big 3 got them to drop it also. The auto manufacturers claim it was bad for something, but I belive the problem was they didn't want to do the testing. We spent a ton of money developing and then testing the product. We found no problems with it. It costs millions for the auto manufacturers to test and approve this type of product.
A local gas station just added an E85 pump. They are run by the Farm Bureau so it is obvious why they are promoting it. Very few vehicles are equipped to run on E85 (85% ethanol). It does attack some rubber products. The fuel delivery system has to put a lot more ethanol in the engine than it would gas, just like it would for methanol.

[Mr Cool]

Now its being sold as an option for planes
http://www.environmentalmanagementnews.net/StoryView.asp?StoryID=36025
I wouldve thought the potential to lean-out and stall at altitude would be a problem, but I guess with todays electronics anything is possible.

[Land Yacht]

From memory Tetra ethyl lead allowed reaching 100 octane, beyond that other things could be done to raise it towards 120.


Ethanol in gas I don't like for older machines as well as 2cycles (chainsaws), for new cars I know of no problems. I would like to know exactly how much of it is in local gas, seems they should be required to tell you.