help with door alignment on my T please .

[chimp koose]

I worked at aligning the pass side door on my coupe yesterday . That door is about 3/16" low at the back and 1/16" wider gap than the other side at the back of the opening  . DS door fits fine . Previously I had tried to lift/shim the pass side cowl mount and got nowhere . yesterday I cut out some bracing I had put in the car to help it to move easier when the cowl mount was shimmed . I had previously welded in a 1" sq tube from the lower body sub rails up and across the top of the recessed firewall , welding a short section of it to the middle of the recessed firewall . I also cut all the spot welds holding the firewall recess to the back of the new firewall all the way up the pass side and across the top to about where the steering column is . I still can not seem to correct the back of the door by raising the cowl mount with shims  . I have tried with the body bolted down everywhere and also with the body bolt in the p/s mount first back from the cowl backed off and no success . I put a nut between the hinge halves on just the lower hinge and pressed the door closed and it lined up much better but I did not have the top hinge installed for any of this stuff . My floor is all steel and riveted in , I do not think that it is preventing movement as the kickup to the firewall is not attached at the sides and is only tacked to the firewall which has been separated from the recessed part . Please school me . From the start to finish , what is the proper way to adjust this door ? I have a mental block and this door frustration has prevented me from working on this car for years now other than drivetrain or anything not body related . If this was a T bucket or roadster it would have been finished 6 years ago .

[jaybee]

Here's something about adjusting the doors on a Model T. It says they're adjusted primarily by bending the hinges rather than with body shims as in later body on frame cars. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/100880.html?1249484498

[chimp koose]

Thanks Jaybe , I looked on that site before and found little . I wonder if it is different for closed cars ? I am using new body blocks to mount the body to frame . I tried bending the hinges in a vice before but it did not seem to help .I had gone to the trouble of calculating how much to bend each hinge and rigging up a fixture . I think the bending needs to be done with doors on car . I am just paranoid about messing this up . I also do not like how far the doors sit out from the body but there is no adjustment for the hinges to slide in/out . An old body guy told me to fix that by bending the door edges closer to the body . I am not against machining up a new set of hinges to correct everything but need to figure out what would correct this in the first place . My goal is to fit the doors nice enough that it is reasonably quiet in the car when driving . I am going to glue the windshield in rather than have an opening one as that is 12' of edges to not have to worry about sealing and the cowl flap will be used as a vent that opens from inside the cab

[idrivejunk]

Having duly studied your description and re-re-reviewed the scant pics...letting the inner bodyman eyeball her for a spell, I think I see it. Look out, its right behind you! 

IDJ says the right B pillar must drop straight down in relation to the floor 3/16" , then forward 1/16". By whatever means are necessary to disconnect it from roof rail and floor.

Shut door. Move pillar foot outward from this position until you see a happy gap at bottom rear of door.

Remove top door hinge if door still sticks out at top front, then bring pillar foot out more and/ or tweak window frame section of door. Strike a balance of bottom rear and top front door "flushness".

Tack the pillar back to the car in that position. Latch that puppy, re-check and grin if you won.

Put upper hinge back in. Try. Change? Do whats needed to revise body or hinge for new hinge position.

Now permanently reconnect pillar. I just can't see the construction to say exactly how on these things but I think if you make the front of the quarter float with the rest connected, you'll see things falling into place better. At the B pillar bottom its probably an L bracket above the pan setting the height. Up top... can't see how thats made but if its a roof rail of sorts don't cut in the middle at the B pillar, go for one end or the other or both ends. If its just a single layer door jamb piece up top... well the objective is to move the quarter and pillar only, not that.

Thats all I have time to write. Sounds like you are ready to bust a move and get past this now. I'm in, but my solution may not be what you wanted to hear.

Anybody else seeing the right quarter needing to come down, on his my T thread in the members forum? Seems fairly obvious today. I don't believe the hinges are really part of the problem. I think somebody someday incorrectly positioned the pillar in the height and length aspects but also the distance from CL which is the very first thing I struggled with on the A. Then they crammed the door a bit because it stuck out, creating the slight top front proudness. You can't always just put stuff where it looks like its supposed to be but thats a start. Then you put what ain't where it has to be and theres your correct, as wrong as it may seem.

Bottom line: Comparative measurements are your best friend, I can't even see the other side. Hope I haven't missed the mark with my reply but its my best from here. Check it out and report.

[chimp koose]

Quick reply IDJ  is that I measured the door openings when both doors were off thinking that might be a problem and both openings are the same front to back and also diagonally in both directions . Top front to bottom rear and top rear to bottom front .  . The door openings are the same from one side to the other . What I didnt mention is that the bottom of the pass door rubs at a spot on the lower door frame . while the roof on a T looks flat , it actually is not . They curve from side to side and front to back. I actually strung mig wire diagonally across the roof from the same points on each side in an X pattern and they just touched where they crossed leading me to think the A pillar was actually in the right place . I tried moving it up as that is what I had read to do with a model A so thought I might as well try . I think the B pillar is where it should be but have never measured to verify as the thought had never occurred to me that it might be out of position . That is my next job ! Thanks for the suggestions guys ! I have work to do 

[idrivejunk]

If you tell me B pillar bottoms are equidistant from CL, I'm in. But it sounds like one door is a sixteenth short.  Where I hail from, if the low door corner bothers you and you're down to and hung up on that... its time to cut and put. Slice and dice. Be done. I looked and looked trying to see if T quarters, like A's, are fusion welded below the window. Made of top and bottom sections jammed together in a jig and zapped. Looked like maybe Ts have that seam but perhaps in the character line instead. Anyway, because A quarters are a half inch different height left to right. Not intentionally but they are. I heard. After pulling out my hair solving that myself. If your quarter has had the common brown bottom disease patch its apparently obligatory to mess up the in-n-out at the bottom as well as the up down fore aft, its just theres no guidelines only eyeball. Mine sees the quarter high at front but not much to go on. If you have two square holes same size, same size square pegs should fit the same. So yep theres more measuring to do. Keep in mind that X measurements reflect height differences poorly. At the splittin hairs stage, a datum plane approach (leveling everything, using good flat floor, plumb bob, etc) might be required to pinpoint whats out.

I wish you the best. Do it! 

[chimp koose]

Thanks for the help guys ! IDJ the T has the roof section bolt to the quarter panels along a flange that is behind the body reveal . The reveal is part of the roof and overlaps the quarter panel . There is no wood on the car . The entire sub structure is a metal  framework that was riveted together . The b pillar is actually a sort of c channel shaped to the external contour of the body . The body panels are bent around it like you do to a door skin . Leading edges of the roof and quarter are folded over that way with the roof panel overlapping the quarter . The bottom edge of the quarter is bent @ 90 degrees and is positioned against the bottom edge of the body's sub frame structure . The top edge of the roof is similarly folded over like a door skin to the top part of the body's framing . Lastly the front side of the b pillar from top to bottom is a piece that is flanged on the inside edge and screwed /bolted to the channel piece . It fits into the channel very snugly kind of like a boxing plate on a frame rail . The floor in my garage is far from level , or flat for that matter . I am thinking i may have to borrow the rotating laser thingy from our construction lab to locate all the door frame positions side to side to see if the framework is tweaked . last detail . the roof and quarter panel both bolt to a T strip of metal at their back edges . The T strip forms the shape of the back of the car from bottom to roof top. The back window section bolts between the T strips and the quarters and side roof panels bolt to the outside edges . The T strip forms the body reveal at the back as all the panels that bolt to it underlap the top of the "T". We just started a new semester at school so I will have to see about the laser thing on the weekend .

[idrivejunk]

That sounds cool, I haven't played with lasers yet. The design sounds mostly similar to an A, at least about the T strips and pillars. The foldover edges must be what transitioned to rows of screws on the A. Both with plenty of rivets in places. Never noticed just where the roof and quarter splits on a T.

Eitherwhichaway... sixteenths of inches are no cause for great concern or fuss on prewar rods in my imaginary book. At work, thats another matter entirely and all about the sixteenths. Just pursue happiness.

[chimp koose]

good advice , thanks IDJ

[chimp koose]

Well I got the laser all set up only to realize I didn't bring the batteries ! I then decided to try bending stuff .  I now have the door mostly aligned with just the top and bottom hinges in .    Now I am starting to get the A pillar hinges all lined up by tweaking the middle one and also the same on the middle door hinge . Looks like I may have to put them in the mill and relocate the mounting holes to move them in closer to the door and A pillar . I think I should braze the holes up before I re drill them so I don't end up with a slot . I found that a mig tip will just fit into the hinge pin holes and by pulling a mig wire snug between them top to bottom I can get a good visual on how much to move the middle hinge for alignment . I was told a long rod the right diameter for the pins could be used but it would be flexible . If it went through all it would be fine but if it didn't then it wouldn't tell you much as far as which one to move and how much . The doors fit the body contour quite well top to bottom at the front but at the rear is different . Pass door sticks out a little at the bottom and drivers at the top . both doors fit well along the body contour along the back until the problem spots . It could be that the body is tipping over to the pass side at the top but I doubt it . I am thinking I will make a templet of the body along the rear of the door opening from top to bottom on both sides and compare them to each other . I can also use them to compare to the actual doors as well .

[chimp koose]

2 nights ago I went to the shop and used a torch to heat up my middle hinge before I bent it . Bending went well until I realized that it needed just a little more . The next little bending was done without heat and I cracked the hinge . I am now making a new hinge .  This is the part of the hinge that attaches to the a pillar.

[idrivejunk]

At least now you can get it right like you want. Better luck from here out.

[chimp koose]

Made a hinge and tried it out . It seems to be properly aligned . Just need to finish welding it now  Also made a couple of pieces to allow me to attach the front of the B pillar again .

[chimp koose]

Finish welding the hinge pulled it out of alignment . A couple whacks with the precision ball peen has it back in spec  . I now have to drill the mounting holes and mill the hinge "fingers" . I left them wide so any weld pull could be milled away without affecting the fit . I am now working on the centre hinge on the door side . It is not quite lined up with the top and bottom hinges . Since the door fits using the top and bottom hinges only , I thought it might still fit well if I align the middle one with the outer pair . Progress , slow ,but progress . I looked at some of my pictures and figured out I have been avoiding this hinge issue for just over 4 years . Doing other stuff in the mean time but still avoiding it . I have redone a truck . engine/ trans swap w/new mounts 6cyl/4spd to 8cyl/auto . Front end ,brakes ,steering , exhaust .steering column ,wiring ,interior  painting and seat swap,  shocks ,shortened driveshaft, diff refresh w/seals and gear change . I also cut the roadster drag chassis in half and did a front half ,narrowed a 9" , built a 4 link and got the whole thing certified . I also built a 350 for the T along with a lot of aluminum parts for moving the water pump out to clear the finned timing cover and aligning the pulleys as well as fixing up the finned oval air cleaner . Lastly made hood sides and welded in the original louvers (thanks guys for the tips on fixing the warping) and fixed up a beat rad shell w/silver solder as it was nickle plated brass . That sounds like a weeks work for KB at his pace !

[kb426]

"Precision ball peen" LOL. I understand working around the unpleasant. Years ago I made the decision to do the worst 1st because life always got better after that. Some days, I have a hard time deciding what's worst. Keep going C.K. We're rooting for you.