random thoughts

[enjenjo]

I may be imagining it but it seems like people don't think they can innovate any more. If there isn't a "kit" to hook a Cad/Lasalle transmission to a LS1 then it can't be done. They used to figure out how it could be done, and then do it.

It's been 20 years since the last SCB was installed in cars from the factory, and 30 years since they used flat tappet cams, and had four bolt valve covers.

I don't near as many unsafe "rat rods" as there were 10 years ago, but there are still some out there. And some of them have evolved into decent cars.

The level of craftsmanship is far and away the best it has ever been. There are some really talented young builders out there, but not as many as there was 30 years ago.

What are your thoughts.

[58 Yeoman]

When I had my 41 Pontiac, I installed a Nova front end, Caddy engine (though the motor mounts weren't finished), a Ford 9" and had a driveshaft built for it. I thought I did a pretty good job, as the buyer and his friends attested to. Unfortunately, I couldn't finish it.

But when I see what you guys do on here, it makes me look like a first grader. I'm in awe of what many of you can build and make out of nothing. I guess it's just easier to put together a puzzle than to figure out your own pieces of the puzzle.

[WZ JUNK]

I am most impressed by the car that was built within a budget.  A car that the average working man could build and own.  Anyone can build a million dollar car, but a quality hot rod that you can build, own, drive, and stay married is something special.

Street Rod Magazine has a special feature this month on cars for the upcoming SEMA show.  They are impressive but most are not practical and they are not affordable.  Like an old man with a young wife.  She is nice to look at.

John

[58 Yeoman]

John, you mean something like this 51 VW Samba. Wonder how many millions he'll have into it when (if) it's done?

https://tinyurl.com/51Samba

[kb426]

Frank, I see what you mean but there are a few items that I think fit it. The 1st, people's expectations are higher than they used to be. The store bought parts are nicer than a lot can build. Most of the innovation we see is in a magazine because someone had a team of people and lots of money spent. I don't go to enough shows to see if some talented average income person has done something really cool. But, if the parts weren't available, would there be more innovation? I'm skeptical of that idea because of the progression of the auto world. I do think that there are more participants now and most want what works instead of something unusual. Because of the credit card builders, do we see more cars? I don't have an answer. If I'm all wet, tell me so.
I like John's comment.

[idrivejunk]

I like John's comment too, and that thought is reflected in my 69 GP. Last of the best I could do with what I had while pay was decent in my field Now, being at a shop like I am, I am even farther removed from the hobby. Can't afford to play mechanicals at all. But Frank, was that mill / trans combo you said a recipie for smithereens? I get your point, sir. If I could play, half the fun is being inventive. Lack of imagination can be a problem with other folks but your cup is full. The way I keep myself from herd thinking is to not give a crap about shows. Hot rods, ones that deserve that name, can certainly be show-worthy but aren't made for that in my opinion. Their purpose is to please the guy who made it so, thats it. Big shows are a different thing entirely in my mind. I don't go look often enough to have an opinion but I know what I like when I see it.

[chimp koose]

I think the lack of innovation (if I read the question right ) is more a question of profitability. Many folks are into this hobby as owners , not builders , and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that . From an economics /good business practice point of view I can see how the pro builders might want to build belly button cars . If you want quicker turnaround , don't innovate . You will likely make more profit by using/installing proven kit products and making the wholesale/retail markup on them while finishing more cars in a given amount of time as compared to building and designing "one offs ".  You will  have a better chance of a satisfied customer as his car looks "just like the one in the magazine " . I am not criticizing this way of building but rather trying to explain it as I understand it . It made sense to me only after watching American Hot Rod w/Boyd Coddington and realising that while Boyd may have been capable of doing some really innovative stuff , much of what they did was opening boxes and installing kit parts . You can only charge so much for your expertise and time  in designing/building one off parts because there are a limited number of folks who can afford it and probably less who can fully appreciate/ comprehend what you may have accomplished with the innovation . Why limit your customer base ? I believe most of the time , people want a car to be very similar to what they have seen and will add a few personal touches during the build . With that in mind the savvy businessman/builder is likely to turn more profit by selling and installing than by designing and building . You are more likely to find employees who can install components than you are to find ones who can design and build them and they can be paid less to boot ! I have been considering starting my own shop with a partner in the future when I retire from teaching . I would be more inclined to convince a client to build a car that could be constructed mainly from kit components . Why ? Quicker completion time with reasonable cost . Street rodder did a series of articles a few years ago where they built a model A ...WITHOUT FIRING UP A WELDER ! A torch was used to bend the front fender braces to clear the suspension . A fully restored model A was turned into a street rod in months rather than years . If you want to look at a successful restaurant chain look at Mcdonalds . Not the most innovative cuisine out there but man do they ever sell a lot of it ! Personally , my favorite builder was John Buttera . Nothing on his cars was a knock off . Everything was a one off . I can probably credit my becoming a machinist to seeing his stuff at an early age . Coddington and Buttera were both machinists . Who do you think made more money ?

[Carnut]

Humm, well now I think it's just a generational thing.

I think 'back in the day' the Hot Rodder was younger and made do with
what he had, could afford, or could fabricate because
there was no money and no prefab parts business except
for the aluminum heads and intake mfgrs.

(now a days tuners and ricers are still innovating like crazy)

One of the things I noticed the most thru the years was that
guys I grew up with who always seemed to envy or desire a
certain type or style of Hot Rod couldn't devote the time or
money or didn't have the wherewithall to build a Hot Rod.

So I was surprised how many of them once they got older and
made their financial 'nut' bought into the 'Turn Key' or
kit car or assemble them yourself from store bought parts rides.

Thus there was no need for folks to 'innovate' as much as 'back in the day'

I kinda think the Hot Rodder is part of a generational wave and will soon
be declining as all the grey beards start dying off.

I know there are some 'fads' going on now by some younger guys
who are into rat rod and traditional styles with some innovation there.
And again I consider them a newer generation thing.

But I kinda consider them a bit of a comic vision of 'Back In The Day'
and for every rat rod or traditional there are still 100 Hot Rod style cars and guys.

Heh, heh, also rodders messing with later model rides run into a lot
of criticism for messing with the 'factory' or 'mandated' features
with mods on cars.

[WZ JUNK]

I made reference to an article in Street Rodder earlier, but the article is actually in this months Hot Rod.  This is the article about the upcoming cars of the SEMA show.

George Poteet has supported many new innovative shops and builders throughout the years.  I salute George for helping many new skilled craftsman get their start.  Others with ability to spend the money have followed his lead.

I have been very lucky to live at a time when I could observe and participate in the life cycle of the hot rodding hobby.  I dreamed of cars when I was young, built had drove them through most of my years, and now I am watching the decline of the hobby as I slide into old age.  The hotrodding movement has closely followed the lives of baby boomers.  Those that do not believe that this whole scene is in decline, have their heads in the sand like an ostrich.  It will not fade away over night, and most of us will not be alive to watch it fade away, but hot rodding as we know it, is changing fast.  I predict that one of the next changes will be a plunge in the inflated price of some the cars for sale.  The market will react to supply and demand and as those of us age more, and have other priorities, our money will go to other interest.  We will not be spending our money on cars that we can not maintain or drive.  The next generations do not have the ties to hobby that we do.  Their interest overlap some but they have other things to do with their disposable funds.  They will not spend their money as we have spent ours.  There will be investors, who have a collection of expensive autos, who will loose money.

Each generation evolves and changes.  My father wrote a college paper in the late 1940's titled "Why the Steam Locomotive Will Never be Replaced by the Diesel Locomotive".  He told me that just a few years later nearly all the steam engines were gone.  He had lived around them all his life and suddenly they just faded away.  I think the same thing will happen to our hot rods.

John

[chimp koose]

My earlier comments were an effort to explain the lack of innovation , not to praise it. As has been mentioned , the rod building shops have proliferated as the guys who could not build/afford their dream car in their youth have come back to the hobby as professionals in other areas who have neither the skills or the patience or time to develop them in order to realise their dream . I am thankful they developed the skill sets they did as we need professionals in all walks of life . I have developed my career around the skill sets required to be able to build my dream car. As a kid in the early 70s I was drawn to cars . I spent every waking hour thinking about them . When you read the rod mags from the era they had tech articles about which junk yard parts you could use to fab up your dream ride . It is no wonder I became a machinist . If I wanted a hot rod I would have to build it .Personally I do not think I could enjoy owning a car I did not build .I agree that this pre '48 hobby may eventually fade away as it has already been morphed in with the street machine / muscle car enthusiasts in an effort to sustain it  . I think an interest in modifying our favourite modes of transportation whatever they may be will not fade out . I think if a guy spent the time to talk to some of these young tuner type guys you might be impressed by the amount of innovation they show. There are many of them repeating our life goals based around a different era of vehicle using different technology and tools . I had a couple of drifter car guys in my machining night class a few years ago . They were all about making their own parts to save money and improve their ride (sound familiar ?). We made a hand operated master cyl. to operate an independent rear brake only system . The plans were obtained from copying a kit , but naturally we tweaked it to make it better . That's what "hot rodders" do , and I don't think that will ever change . By the way ... one of those tuner guys is on the team I am joining in my trip to Bonneville with the A fuel roadster .

[enjenjo]

I was thinking more in line of the individual builders, not the rod shops. So many of them are not able soundly engineer a rod without some one to guide them. Not really here, but on many of the boards you see the same silly things said over and over. You see someone who bought a finished car, or just finished a car, and have no idea how to solve a simple problem without tearing it all apart and starting over. It's no wonder so many cars never get finished.

I went and looked at a 36 Ford Cabriolet that turned out to be one I wired 25 years ago for another owner. It still has not been finished because of the dismally bad body repair done on it. The guy who has it now will finish it, but he will have to do the body work all over.

[idrivejunk]

I reckon that with the upswing in rods and projects changing hands due to greybeard syndrome, we have to see more owners who aren't sure just what they have got and fear of the unknown eats away at them. As we see all too often, their concern is valid. That's the burn in having a rod but not being a Rodder I guess. The generational thing is valid, I believe every one likes best the cars that were about 15 years old when they started driving. Just an observation from a wacko. Here's a random thought... All my life, when using cash and receiving change, the large bill is on the bottom of the stack. Now it isn't. Mandela effect, perhaps :?:

[Crosley.In.AZ]

What I see (or dont see) ... is the ability to cypher some problem out.  The Lack of diagnostic thought process in many young folks.

I've had some 'special failures' on stuff I have attempted to build , rebuild , modify ....   Eventually learn some thing or  find some one to help me  and get it right

[Bruce Dorsi]

I can't speak for what is happening elsewhere, but in my part of NJ, there seems to be little mechanical aptitude among adults as well as kids.  ...Most people do not fix things for themselves as was done in the past.

Perhaps we can blame this on the technology of our times, or the affluence of the parents, but very few do their own repairs (house or vehicle related) or maintenance.

My mechanical aptitude was instilled in me at a young age (4) by watching my Dad do small-engine repair.  ...He gave me an old engine to play with, and then later, an erector set. ...I was encouraged to analyze how things worked and to trouble-shoot on my own.

I also learned the basics of electricity, plumbing, masonry, carpentry, etc, by helping my Dad do things around the house & shop.  ...Today's youth (again, in MY area) do not have that interest, and their parents lack the knowledge but have the financial ability to hire others to change faucet washers, wall outlets, and change their oil, etc., so the kids are not exposed to this type of work.

These same youngsters are encouraged to participate in youth soccer, pee wee football, T-Ball, or they are into video games and computers.  ...It is very rare to see anyone working on their own cars, and most do not mow their own lawn.

Since my area has become financially affluent, most of the offspring from these parents are pushed toward lofty careers, as most consider working in the trades as demeaning or second-class.  ...Granted, there are a few exceptions, but they are not the norm.

Most young people have computer, video game, and phone skills that I will never achieve, but I have acquired skills in my lifetime, that most of them will never acquire.

I have also learned that common sense is no longer common!

[chimp koose]

Enjenjo , when it comes to individual builders I have to concur , not much innovation . Lately I have been watching the HAMB and it surprises me to see some of the questions being asked . Having said that , one has to wonder where else they would learn this stuff . In my classroom I say there is no such thing as a stupid question , what IS stupid is staying quiet and hoping to understand later .Anyone 40 years old or less would not be exposed to vehicles without computers . As Mr Dorsi has explained there is less and less "common knowledge " as the things we grew up with are no longer common . I think that as manufacturing has essentially gone from America so has the skill set that went with it . In my shop classes I have noticed the slow degradation of hands on skills as basic as threading a bolt or turning a wrench . These things must now be taught .Kids looking for an "easy credit " are now enrolling in computer graphics classes rather than mechanics or machining .It does not surprise me that the 20 and 30 year old builders are doing basic builds free from innovation , as they are probably still developing the skills most 50+ year olds had developed by our teens . My grandfather would chuckle if he saw me try to shoe a horse , my daughter has three horses and I have spent time with the farrier and in a blacksmith class . The 'family farm ' has been in the family for the past 112 years , it has gone from 4 teams of horses to GPS guided seeders that will seed 1/2" left or right of last years seeding . I am just happy to see that young guys are still interested in old cars .