5.4 Fuel Economy?

[Arnold]

Just curious. Are they pigs on fuel or just when they are in a big vehicle?
I WAS going to buy about a 2000 or so to about a 2008 F350 4x4 Crew Cab Long box. I talked to lots of owners. They all loved them and said they were really great trucks! BUT! they all got about the same mileage.
I am  no stranger to large vehicles. Right now I have a 6.0 Police 3/4 ton 4x4 'Burb..and an extended 1 ton GM van. The mileage all the owners gave me was a little better than half of what I get now? HUNH? It can't be that all these owners are running them that hard or that loaded.But burning almost doublt to my own very large vehicles? Somein' aint right.
They were all 5.4's with the  exception of a few V10's The  mileage on those was so bad as to be almost unbelieveable. Even the diesels were certainly not good on fuel either. I saw a few old 351's and wonderred what they would be like?? Thanks..

[wayne petty]

if you pick up the 5.4...

before you take any long trips.. or as normal routine every other or third time you change your oil...

use an automotive stethoscope and listen to the idler and tensioner pulleys... along with the water pump...

i live next to an off ramp and have seen several 130K version toss the belt when the idler and tensioner bearings seized..

the 5.4's are also vacuum elbow eaters..  there are four vacuum hose elbows around the throttle body.. either 10MM or 5/16..  i use the dorman 46002 to fix the collapsed elbows.. it will toss a P0171 or similar codes when they leak..

one drawback to the 5.4... if the spark plugs have been changed or not.. and if the person who did it screwed it up.. its an overnight to do it properly.. loosen with a beam type torque wrench.. not going above 20 foot pound.. not more than 1/4 turn... soaking over night to dissolve the carbon on the extended end so it does not bind and jam when you take them out..  they snap off..  requiring MAJOR repairs.. either several hundred to break the parts out and install a thread insert from the top... or remove and replace the head...  

wait.. chevys don't have that issue..

if the air suspension fails.. monroe makes a complete change over to coil over struts kit..

with the chevy 6.0.. if anything ever happens to the body of the truck.. the motor becomes a HOT motor donor.. drop on a 4 bbl intake and electronic box for spark.. swap a cam and you have 400 to 600 hp..  depending on which heads you have..


as for fuel economy.. with a scan tool or a obd2 on the dash monitor... you can learn to drive with the best short and long term fuel trim numbers to possibly increase MPG..

OBD2 still  uses a LOT of fuel to keep the cats HOT...

sorry i don't have a better answer for you...

chevys fail also..

[UGLY OLDS]

We are seeing VERY severe oil use issues with 5.4's ... Ford insists that 1 qt  per thousand miles is not abnormal ...   We had at least 12 failures in the 15 to 20 K mile range where the engine consumed enough oil in 4K miles after an oil change to cause the engine to seize ... ( Who checks oil EVERYTIME you buy fuel in a 6 month old vehicle with 14K miles )

The 5.4's also have a problem of "Launching" spark plugs ... They will blow them out of the cylinder head without warning ... This in turn destroys the plug & the coil .. Almost EVERY shop has the tools to install Heli-Coils in these engines ... Pick-ups are not too bad ..E-Model trucks need to have the intake removed to install the insert in the center 4 cylinders ...About $1375.00 at your friendly dealer .....


 Ford is aware of the problem as rebuilt 5.4's from Ford are on constant back order ... I would not own one .....

Bob ....

[purplepickup]

Hmmm.....Sound like 5.4 not good Kemosabi.  

I've got one in an '01 van with 130,00 miles and I love it.  I've never had a problem at all but I didn't know about the plug problems.  First, I'll answer Arnold's question.  I get 17-18 mpg on the highway (73 mph) and 13 around town.  Not too great but it's got lots of power.....good for towing too.  

After reading Wayne and Bob's comments, I'm a little concerned.  I read on a Ford site that if you can get the plugs out without breaking them, they have a better designed plug to put back in.  Something about it being one piece and having more threads.... and they need to be accurately torqued.  

Another problem talked about is that the coil packs aren't very water resistant and when they get wet they fail.  One other issue is electrolysis eating away aluminum parts, causing leaks, due to neglecting to keep the coolant fresh.  But that's a potential problem with most any aluminum engine.  They don't like skipped oil changes either.

I maintain my stuff real well but I haven't changed plugs and I'm hoping that won't be an issue.  Now that I'm spooked I'm going to make some calls to see if I can find a knowledgeable somebody to help me out there.

Thanks Bob and Wayne for your advice to Arnold.

[wayne petty]

on the spark plug issue...

check the links on this thread from a while back

there are 2 detailed articles linked on it as i recall


http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11729&highlight=spark+plug


one could spend HOURS on this link...


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/TechCenter/

might be a good idea to bookmark it for slow days...

[UGLY OLDS]

George ...The tech's I work with &  most Certified Ford tech's advise that the proper procedure to R&R the plugs is very simular to removing a rusted fastener .... Soak the plug ...Loosen a little bit.....Soak some more..Turn SLIGHTLY back & forth ... soak some more ... turn some more ...Etc ... ANY resistance is reason to turn the plug the "other" way .....

 As Wayne said this can sometimes take more than a day ...  We run into trucks that have the OE plugs at 150K miles ... They are usually out of service for a 2 or 3 day window for a plug replacement .. Try explaining that to a driver , ( or his MANAGER!!) , that took the truck in for a "Tune-up"....

Hope this helps ......


Bob ......

[purplepickup]

Since carbon is one issue, do you think it would help to use something like Seafoam to de-carbon the plugs before attempting to pull them?

[UGLY OLDS]

Since carbon is one issue, do you think it would help to use something like Seafoam to de-carbon the plugs before attempting to pull them?

 George ...I don't know what "Secret Sauce" they use to break the carbon loose .....Only that it is sprayed from the top on a COLD engine ONLY .... From what I understand , the carbon issue is in the threaded area of the plug..   Maybe Wayne can help more ....


 Gee ...My '89 GMC is looking better & better every day .....


Bob...

[wayne petty]

the carbon is usually not in all the threads.. but along the EXTENDED tube on the threaded end of the spark plug.. where there was only room for a drilled hole down between the valves...   the gap between the hole in the head and the spark plug extended tube gets filled with carbon from the combustion chamber...

i am very bad... sorry..  these are not the articles that describe the proper overnight removal process...

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/5195/this_super_duty_was_a_super_headache.aspx


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/38150/tech_tips_for_2004_and_up_ford_f150_engines.aspx

i will have to take a look around and see if i can find the proper article.. both of these are very important to read and look at the pictures..

oh.. another dot to know.. factory installation tools paint a DOT on the top of the spark plug to show that it has been torqued...   so take a look at the spark plugs tops before you pay somebody to change them.. and after you pay to get them changed.. if you have a good camera.. take a photo with a time mark ..

the fords trucks have proven themselves for 100's of thousands of miles...  keeping the engine sealed and oil on the exterior washed off so it does not dissolve the hoses..



here is a link to a TSB on it..

http://www.phila.gov/fleet/Warranty%20Recalls/tsb08-07-06%20FORD.pdf


it says to use motorcraft carb tune up cleaner... right on the first page.. allowing it to soak for 15 minutes.. after you have slightly loosened the spark plug on a COLD MOTOR..

[purplepickup]

Sorry for hijacking your thread Arnold.

Thanks again for all the info Wayne and Bob.  Now I've got plenty of reading to do on the next rainy day.

[Okiedokie]

My 2000 F150 with 5.4 has 148,000 trouble free miles on it. I was familar with the plug problem so changed at 50,000 mile intervals and no problems yet. Allow engine to be cold and presoak with 50%ATF/50% acetone prior to removong plugs. 17-18 on highway ay 70-75, 13 or so around town.

[phat46]

My brother learned about the plugs the hard way. He was doing a tune-up for a friend and a couple plugs broke. He thought the cure was to pull the heads but they do make a tool to extract the broken plug, it ain't cheap but it's better than the alternative.

[Arnold]

I had heard of the plug issues. But did not know of the expertise here about dealing with it. Great to know! I had also not heard of the tensioner,pulley issues.vaccuum elbows or of their thirst for oil.
 Bob you are making a big deal of them "Launching Plugs".(I have heard of that too) Some plugs are SOoo hard to change..at least these come out all by themselves
George..I would be curious to know if the coil pack moisture problems are related to plugs that are worn with too wide a gap. That is sure not an uncommon problem with lots of cars. Run them until the gap is too wide and the current finds another way to ground. Often through tiny cracks in the bakelite or epoxy of windings. A bit of moisture and away it goes. Problem is often the problem goes away when they dry out..or are not driven under much load.Don't even consider an apology neccessary for ANYTHING. We are just here at this great site sharing knowledge and having fun.

 As for mileage..I talked to a lot of owners of ONLY F350 4x4 Crew Cab Long Boxes. ALL the mileage was VERY close..about 10mpg. Maybe Canadian models have different emmissions? probably.

[UGLY OLDS]

Some plugs are SOoo hard to change..at least these come out all by themselves

  The only problem is that the ALWAYS seem to take the threads with them & destroy a $95.00 coil along the way ...  

  WAIT ......     WAYNE .....Where can we get "self threading " Spark Plugs  :?:  :?:    :(D)

Just like drain plugs ....  " First" oversize ....."Second" oversize ...Etc .... THAT'S the ticket    :!:       ~:)

 I just hope they resolve the oil use issue soon ...     This is startin' to get 'spencive .......


Bob ......

[48ford]

Champion makes a one piece plug to replace the two piece ones from ford.
so the next time they will not break
Russ