Here We Go Again, Starters!!!!

[BFS57]

Hello;
Yeah, I'm the guy that has starter problems. Now, I see a pattern to this situation! They all seem to be cracking the nose part of the starter!!
Went through at least 4 starters. Had one that kept coming apart, then it failed, had to have the chevy towed to Kens Garage, He went through it and put a Delco reman on it, with the rear brace, That one crapped out (same way) Then I replaced it with an $80.00 rebuilt one, that one died yesterday in my driveway, same thing!!! Now, I installed a mini starter, I don't think it's a gear reduction, makes my 57 chevy sound like a Toyota when I start it.
Anyone out there ever had this problem?? Anyone know what the heck is going on here???
I'm going to try to get to the block numbers, supposed to be on the drivers side top someplace near where the trans bolts on. Gonna use my web cam and a led light to try to search for those just to see just what engine I really do have.
Other than that, I'm stumped, hope one of you can enlighten me on this situation!

Bruce

[phat46]

Same thing mine did, kept cracking the nose cone, get those block numbers go to a REAL rebuilder and get the correct starter. Mine has worked like a champ for about ten years now.

[Mikej]

Does it start with the mini starter?

[Arnold]

I have seen sbc starter problems for ALL kinds of reasons:

  I guess start with the worst.

  The crank..there isn't a whole lot of play in the rear main . Shimmed too tight at a point where there is a lot of play will wreck 'em.
 The crank is not bent at the rear flange .  
  The ring gear is not out of round..or has a tooth or two chewed up? and is tight.

  Starter bolts are good..

  From there..crappy rebuilders..chewed up housings where the knurled
part of the bolt goes in.

  Shimmed right.

  Running way too much cranking compression

  Waay too much initial timing..

   Heat soak situation where waay too much internal friction is encountered.

  Try and get a new starter off a wreck ..not rebuilt..from the boneyard.

[wayne petty]

starter problems on chevy's

what size is your block drilled and tapped to on the starter mounting holes...

3/8-16,   3/8"=.375"
or
10 mm X 1.5 thread.   10mm is .392" or something close to that.. around 0.020 larger...

if you attempt to put a metric bolt in a SAE threaded block.. you will either break the corner off the block.. or break the bolt off in the hole so hard thats it is a PAIN to removeif you

if you go the other way and use a sae bolt in a metric block.. it may strip out.. sometimes break do to the threads wedging..


the starters come drilled for 3/8   and others come for 10MM

check the fit of the knurl where it passes through the upper mounting area of the starter nose cone...



sorry i don't have  a picture of the metric starter and the 3/8 bolt.. as there is a lot of slop.

this lets the starter push back from the flywheel... making all kinds of noise..

if you are running a conventional DELCO starter...  you can use a 1/8" rod... between the outside of the flywheel ring gear and the starter shaft with the pinion gear retracted.. this lets you know exactly which way you need to go..

i also use a diamond file to dress the sides of the flywheel ring gear down.. where the machine cutting tools have left a curl where the metal folded around the flat side instead of shearing cleanly..  i also dress the tips of the gear lightly.. and the sides of the V slightly.. so there are no burrs..


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lets look at the distributer...

pull the distributer cap off...  grab the rotor.. turn it against the advance springs...    release... then grab it and see if it returned all the way to the stop...   i have had many HEI and even a hand full of points type distributers that the mechanical advance device was not free to return... so the advance would stay increased when the engine is off..


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what kind of starter button or ignition switch do you have..??

is there any chance that as you turn it to the crank position.. that when you release it.. that it disconnects and then reconnects for a split second kicking the starter out intl the spinning flywheel...   or if you have some kind of load dropping relay hooked to the car alarm.. that could be engaging the starter while the engine is running.   that happened to me with a customers honda.. the alarm was partially bypassed.. but was done wrong and the starter relay could be powered sometimes when you push the clutch pedal via some feedback via the clutch pedal switch.. not that you are having that problem..

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next....   you might want to remove your torque converter bolts...  slide the converter back away from the flexplate.. then forward all the way.. making sure that the pilot hole in the back of the crank is not rusted, damaged.. or still has a pilot bearing in it .. that prevents the torque converter from being pulled all the way forward.. to allow the flex plate to maintain its straightness..  put the torque converter bolts back in..  there was another fellow on a forum out there that the flex plate was pulled so far back that the pinion gear would just barely reach it...


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while you have the cap off.. if you have an HEI or magnetic pick up ignition..   look at the layers of the pick up coil... do you see any cracks or missing pieces from the second or third layer that should be a ONE piece ceramic magnet..

[BFS57]

Hello;
Wayne, you are always full of great info but I lack the sense to be able to comprehend some of what you are saying.
The mini starter starts my Chevy just fine now! The bolts fit pretty good and snug, I am pretty sure they are SAE. When I got the car, it had a th 400 trans in it. I changed the engine and trans to a 350 engine (just rebuilt) and a 700R4 trans. So, the blocks had changed. Had this starter problem with the previous engine combo. I am beginning to feel that rebuilt anything isn't worth the powder to blow it to smitherines!!
Im thinking that this new mini starter will do the trick.
I have an Ignitor 2 in my dizzy and sometime the starter has to crank a bit to get the engine to fire and sometime that fire is quite hard and fast. So what you say about the internals of the dizzy could be a factor in the equation. I think it's about time for a much better system, Heck, I was thinking of going back to points! I know i'm not pleased with what I have in that department! I think I'm gonna look into that!!
Thanks guys keep the feedback coming!

Bruce

[wayne petty]

if your car is still hard to start.... and you have a pertronix ignitor...

please...  Monitor the voltage on the POSitive side of the ignition coil....

do you have a test light???    put the Ground clip of the test light on the positive terminal of the coil....

shove the probe end of the light into something to ground the probe... and that you can see the light from the drivers seat...

turn the key ON... do you get a moderate bright light..

turn the key to the cranking position .. the light should get brighter..    release the key to the RUN position..

in the RUN position .. you should have the same brightness light that you had before..

this test verifies that the ignition system is getting the proper voltage from the ignition switch and the ballast resistor.. but also from the bypass circuit when the starter is engaged...


why do i want you to spend a whole 5 or 10 minutes doing this test...  i have found a LOT of cars over the years with power problems to the ignition system..  

where the power going into the ignition switch might be a problem.. especially when the starter is engaged...

where the power coming out of the ignition switch is Intermittent do to worn contact surfaces in the switch...

this would cause the test light to go dark while you are doing the above test...  or to dim...

either of those would be an issue... as the pertronix ignition needs more voltage to operate the electronics... they don't work well when the voltage falls too far..

check your messages... i sent my cell phone number..

i have to head out for a repair job tonight.. so i will be up fairly late if you want to talk about what needs to be done...

brain to tongue is a lot more nimble that brain to fingers..

[Mikej]

You were correct that the mini doesn't sound like the old one. They are gear reduction like the old mopars, but they work.

[BFS57]

Hello;
I did the test on my car this morning with the test light, had bright light with car in on position, had dim light with starter engaged, after start, went back to bright light! Didn't see any dead spots, did this a couple of times.
I then went for a drive, got it all heated up, then I noticed that the starter had to crank longer to get the engine to start, I'm thinking that the dizzy is having (or the way I have it hooked up) a problem. I got this set up from an old friend and he said that he didn't like the fact that he had to wait after turning on the key for the ignitor to "energize" before he could start the motor!! Think it's time for something new and improved!
Anyone try dave's small body HEI?? He makes an HEI out of a Chevy (or any) dizzy, cost about $200.00 Think thats the direction I will go!

Bruce

[wayne petty]

the LIGHT going DIM during cranking is MORE than likely the problem...


print this diagram...  do you have STOCK wiring..    

http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Chevrolet/MWireChev57_3WD-057.jpg

look at the wiring from the coil.     from the key... the wiring goes to the ballast resistor.. (shown next to the starter solenoid in this diagram)(the ballast resistor is on the firewall as i recall)  the wire drops down to the starter solenoid R terminal (3 o clock position on a delco) from there it goes to the COIL positive...

How this works..     from the key...  the TAN wire to the resistor...

from the resistor probably dark green down to the starter R terminal and then up to the + Ignition coil...    

what happens...  in the run position..  the power comes from the key through the resistor where is it reduced slightly to avoid burning the points..  

during cranking.. the R terminal connects to the solenoid contact disc and boosts the voltage to the positive side of the coil... a BYPASS or the resistor... this increased voltage boosts the spark output for easier starting..


but with the gear reduction starter... what happened to the R terminal..

where did you hook the wire is that is the way the delco starter was hooked up...

please describe if you have a stock ignition switch...

please describe what you did with the wire that was previously on the  R terminal

since chevy starters are on the right side of the motor..    do you have headers.. or stock probably rams horn exhaust..  

is there room to hang something like a chrysler starter relay under the heater box on the firewall to the passenger side of the engine..

there are several ways to fix this...

#1... use a 70 dodge dart starter relay to control your solenoid.. even with the gear reduction. it pulled additional amperage..  this removes the long circuit all the way from the ignition switch to the starter..   drops the 30 or 40 amps needed to engage the starter to about 3 amps through the key..  


#1b   you can possibly change the connector location for the IGN1 on the ignition switch..  but it's usually not that easy on earlier models ... mid 60s models is slightly easier..  


2...  you can use the tan wire.. removed from the resistor to control a cube relay.. that will power the pertronix with a power supply up from the battery post on the starter.. so there will be NO REDUCTION in power other than the resistor for the ignition system... this kinda still depends on the TAN wire   if the ignition switch breaks the connection there during the cranking of the engine as the starter solenoid should be supplying voltage from there..

2b...   i will have to look at the wiring  and see if you can upgrade to the 1975 chevy van key in the dash ignition.. that is set up for HEI already.. so it does not break the power to the IGN 1 circuit while the key is in the cranking position..






option 3...  is to use a later mid 70s... i will supply a wiring diagram and a part number for it..  a mid 70s chrysler starter relay.. this will reduce the amp load on the ignition switch during cranking.. but also has a single terminal for the ignition bypass..  



more info depending on how you reply...

you will have to understand.. i understand how all this stuff works.. i just have not seen any changes to your car... others also know this info..

some will tell you that i am not sending down the WRONG street...

[BFS57]

Hello;
I already have the 70 dart  relay on my firewall and no, my wiring is anything but stock.  I replaced all my wiring with a EZ Wiring harness (21 circuit). The Ignition switch, however is stock (as far as I know) and does not feature an ACC position, just on and start, if I want to play around with anything electronic, I have to put the key in the "on" position.
Even with the relay, I see a pretty serious drop in voltage. I'm pretty sure I connected it correctly
The mini starter I got from DB Electrical, it features the proper "staggered" bolt pattern and the proper wiring to the solenoid.
As far as the ballast resistor, I used a wiring diagram for the Ignitor 2 that I got off their website. Wires are the proper gage or heavier!!
Thats what I have presently.
I'm thinking that between the heat of the motor and need for restart, is where I'm having an issue.
To look at the starter I got, go to DB's web and look at auto starters, chevrolet, mini starters. dbelectrical.com

Bruce

[wayne petty]

since you already have the load dropping relay for the starter solenoid...

i am taking that is installed with a separate wire from the battery or battery post on the starter to the large threaded stud on the 70 dart relay... this is so that any power needed when the contacts are closed comes from a direct wire.. not through the harness..  this reduces the load on the harness to about 3 amps...


cool.   lets install a standard alarm relay...   as a ignition booster relay while the engine is being cranked.. this can all be done right under the hood without splicing or cutting a single existing wire... so it it does not work.. you can take it back off.. but i think you will be really happy... this is going to be cheep also...


the cube relay has 5 terminals on it... we are going to use 4 of them

pin 85 to ground  usually a short wire with a ring terminal to the screw holding the relay to the firewall...

pin 86 to the 70 dart relay.. the center terminal with the hold down clamp..

pin 30 to  the threaded stud on the 70 dart relay..

pin 87A to the positive side of the coil...  in addition to the existing wiring...


this should send full battery voltage to the positive side of the coil only when cranking the engine...  eliminate the test light going dark while cranking..   restores the system to having an ignition resistor bypass circuit...

i can provide you a wiring diagram for this probably monday evening.. if you need to see something.. i am out messing with ford 300 six timing gears again..

[wayne petty]

say... one more quick test.. before you do anything else...

the test light test...

can you connect the test light to the solenoid wire thats on one of the push on terminals on the 70 dart relay...    you could actually disconnect it from the relay for this test so you can turn the key slowly from on to start and then back to ON..   to make sure that you don't have any voltage drop outs like you seemed to have with the ignition..  this could have been some of the problem with the starter noses breaking..

the ignition power to the positive coil could also have been the issue..

but if the solenoid power kicked out as you were releasing the key... and then kicked back in..   the starter might try to disengage and then slam back in with the starter still spinning causing excess force on the starter nose as the gear tried to reengage ...

this is another quick test...  that might illuminate issues that have caused you lots of money in the past...

installing the relay for the ignition bypass should cost you less than 20 bucks..  try to find a relay that does not have a diode on the wiring diagram    a diode looks like an arrow tip to a vertical line..  

alarm shops have inexpensive relays and relay sockets for around 10 bucks..  junk yards are full of them with decent wiring and sockets.

[BFS57]

Hello;
I got tons of 40 amp relays, I use (or try to) relays for everything!
I'm thinking you are trying to get me to wire a relay to the dodge relay! Correct? I had my hands full this am installing a fuel regulator that wouldn't stop leaking until I took it back off, took out all the fittings and used teflon tape to seal everything, then it worked really great!! Adjusted my fuel pressure to 4 pounds! So that the crappy gas doesn't expand in the fuel line going to the carb! THe engine compartment in my chevy is starting to look like a space module what with all the electronics and the heat shielded fuel lines! And, just for giggles, I went and fueled up with non ethanol gas! ($4.40 a gallon) just to see if that helps.
I have to go to work tomorrow (double pay) so I won't get to work on my car till next weekend as the early mornings are cool enough but by 11:30 FORGET IT! I darn near killed myself this morning, my shirt looked like someone turned the hose on me!
Draw up a diagram for that relay and I'll get ready and put that in line also I'm determined to get this car to start easy.
I'm also thinking I should get my dizzy (another one I have) turned into an HEI from Dave, cost is about $250.00 with the proper coil. This will eliminate the ballast resister as his set up uses a full 12 volts!
Thank You Wayne for all the generous knowledge you share with all of us (and I speak for myself when I say this) mechanically dumbfound car guys!!

Bruce

[wayne petty]

yes... i want you to run a relay that is attached to the starter relay...

so the power to the ignition positive circuit does NOT drop while cranking

if you want to go to an HEI...

then you will need to wire it slightly differently... just slightly.. as HEI uses full battery voltage  instead of slightly reduced voltage...

let me see what i can do for a diagram...