Does this happen because this AMC product is built with GM p

[GPster]

The middle Jeep ('80 CJ7) quit on me last Monday. It was on the crest of a bridge two blocks from home and I could just coast it off the bridge onto my street and park it and see what was wrong. My first thought was that the ammeter had opened it's circut but then when I popped the hood open I found one of the battery connections loose. Because the Jeep doesn't lock I don't carry any tools in it so I walked the two blocks home and got my battery terminal cleaning brush and a 1/2" combination wrench. Got back to it and tended to that repair. That wasn't it. So I walked back home and cot my tow sling and waited for Linda to get off work then we towed it home. Started feeling sick so I didn't do any more to it or anything else. Tuesday morning got in to see my doctor and then spent the next day-and-a-half in bed when I was puking. Now two days behind on everything I never got a chance to investigate the problem. I did check my wiring diagram and at one point I did get out and check and the headlights and the horn worked so the ammeteris OK and live power was getting at least as far as that junction so next will be to see if power is getting to the ignition switch on the steering column. Couldn't find my test lamp. Finally got over town and got another test lamp and when I got back to my garage I started moving stuff to have a clean spot on my workbench and I un-covered my test lamp. Found myself with a little free time this evening so I got my test lamp and the ingnition key and went out to look. Put the key in and switched it on. The engine started rolling. It didn't start but I was standing beside it. So I got in, set the choke and pumped the gas one time and it refused to roll again and the ammeter shows no movement if any of the keyed accesories are turned on. I've never had one of these switches do this in a GM car or anything I've ever built and put a GM column in but of course I was talking with a guy that's owned Jeeps for years and he said he had a couple of them that failed that way. Of course I've had this switch out one time already duping my re-wiring escapades. It wasn't packed in mud and looked OK but I had to  use a small combination box end wrench to get the machine screws out because of the lack of room. Well I'd better go to bed and rest up "Tomarrow is another day" GPster

[enjenjo]

If you need a new switch, I have some here.

[wayne petty]

i think that i would really want to map out the wiring diagram ...

make sure that the charging current is NOT flowing through the ignition switch..    

and that the loads connected to the ignition switch.. are split by the several contacts inside the switch...

i took a look at the tilt column switch buyers guide..  it has been used in GM applications starting in 1969 with the last GM application in 1994..  and 74 to 94 jeep applications..

can you identify which circuit failed...

replacement pigtail connectors and short terminated wires are available if your harness end is burned...

at az   #263
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/263/image/4/

another is 991

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/991/image/4/


it is totally possible that the any motor corporation could have gotten the factory wiring to the switch slightly wrong with too much load on a single contact circuit..

[GPster]

Possibly at one time there was a lot of current through that one switch contact because somewhere along the line somebody had eliminated the accessory wire from the swtich to the fuse panel and everything that ran had been run off of a hot junction wire with-out any fuses. What circuits that I retained are now factory wired and all of the junction taps have been eliminated. The only wire from the alternator that comes from the switch is the exciter wire and it's also power to the ignition circuit. A little checking shows that the switch is also the same as the switch for an '87 GMC S15 so I've got a switch in my stock. Because I put a tilt column in the Jeepster I parted out the column that was in that donor vehicle. Boy that was luck! The middle Jeep already has that column's steering wheel because it had all of it's horn mechanism and it still leaves me with the directional signal switch. If it wasn't raining I'd go out and fix it but maybe I should work in the dry and fix the motor on my pressure washer. Never can tell when someone will want to borrow it. GPster

[wayne petty]

i forgot i had a picture of the contacts inside that switch..

[GPster]

i forgot i had a picture of the contacts inside that switch..

Does that picture come with any adjustment instructions? I was wondering when I had the switch out the first time if that actuating wire through it's movement could hold the switch between contacts or in a position that contact wasn't made securely. With the screw holes  being sloted you would think there is an optimum position. Of course the old switch appears that it may have been muddy at one time and this Jeep's body is rusted-out  at the windshield hinge joint directly above the steering column. Maybe there's a reason this vehicle had been removed from the daily transportation mode.  GPster

[wayne petty]

sure... info... i am full of it...

the PINOUT   some info.. B3 in this diagram is usually from a separate supply wire from B1 and B2..  

B3 usually is the supply wire for the AC and Heater blower. and is connected to I3 alone...

this is the info about spliting the  load i was trying to get across earlier in this post.

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/LS309B.PDF


instruction sheet with multiple languages.. and some diagrams on switch positions.

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/instruction_sheets/990700517.pdf




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this is something i just found that may come in handy for some rodders here... its the gm dash mounted ignition switch.. used from the late 60's to probably the mid 70s..   uses a gm ignition lock cylinder..  

this switch is a GREAT upgrade switch from a slightly earlier GM dash mounted switch when converting to HEI ignition  as the  power from the battery  on both red wires to the PINK ign 1 wire is NOT BROKEN during cranking..   and the contacts will handle the increased HEI needs..

purple wire is for the starter solenoid.  the pair of brown wires next to it are accessory power supply..


http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/LS411C.PDF

various bezels are available from restoration parts suppliers


this is the pig tail connector for it.. so you can use a connector instead of ring terminals on your rod..

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/showpartimage.php?partno=642

the Ground 1 and ground 2 connections are for BULB check.. they are isolated (open contacts) except when the key is in the cranking position.. usually the HOT and the OIL lights circuits are wired through this switch on the double green and double grey.. so the circuit is shorted to ground during cranking to test the bulbs.  a snazzy piece of automation for  those with idiot lights instead of gauges..

anybody with questions.. on these.. and how to wire it.. look up a 75 chevy van wiring diagram..  with the dash mounted ignition switch..

frank or fat cat might want to use this info and create a ignition switch page for the Tech section..

[GPster]

Even with instructions I had to do it twice. Yesterday before I mounted the replacement switch on the column I hooked up the battery. With the switch plugged into the harness I used my test light (after finding a decent ground for the alligator clip) and made sure I had power going to the switch and moved the switch through it's various positions and made sure I had power coming out. Mounted the switch to the column but the starter wouldn't run. Today I ccheckd my neutral safety switch grond circuit and the starter wire from the switch and then jumped the starter solenoid relay and it worked. Then I loosened up the igntion switch on the column and slid it in it's mounting slot so that the actuator would push the switch further in the start position. Now the Jeep runs and starts.  After I carried all my tools back to my garage I did a continuity check on the old switch. Didn't get any. I hope that fixes it. GPster

[GPster]

Same problem only different. After it ran so good today I decided to drive it over town. Nothing! Battery terminals OK but no movement of the ammeter needle. Further checking has the lights and horn working but nothing working off the switch. All of a sudden something reset and it seemed ok so drove it over town. When I came out of the store (TSC) nothing again. Then it reset. Drove home and turned it off. Tried to start it right away and nothing again. Time to walk away from it. Maybe I should have bought a new switch instead of using one I had in stock (from an '87 GMC S15). Is there a breaker in these column operated ignition switches?. The only power going through it was the ignition today . No windshield wiper or defroster fan. GPster

[wayne petty]

az Duralast/Ignition Switch
Part Number: LS309
Alternate Part Number: 3527
Warranty: Limited Lifetime
Price: $14.99


please run my 4 part test... but to extra places..

engine running. headlights on... digital volt meter set to 20 volts scale..

1.   battery negative to battery positive...  14.1 to 14.8 volts is expected.

2.   battery negative post to the engine block.. 0.04 volts.

3.   battery negative post to the body...  0.02 volts

4.   engine block to the firewall... 0.02 volts..

continuing..

E.  battery positive to the alternator output terminal..

F.  battery positive to the starter main terminal..

G. using the red side of a pair of jumper cables.. one clamp to the positive terminal at the battery.. drag the other end of the jumper cables over beside the jeep without touching the body.. clip to  the end with one of your volt meter leads..
probe the fuse box... look for voltage readings above 0.2 volts..   this is done with the engine running and the head lights on... if you get more than 2/10 of a volt.. you probably either have a bad ignition switch or a bad connection between the battery positive, the bulk head connector or someplace under the dash..


we are looking for VOLTAGE DROPS...

think of a garden hose... with a kink in the middle...  if the nozzle at the end is closed..  you will build pressure as the flow can get past the kink to fill the hose up to the closed nozzle... so you have pressure.. and seemingly volume..


if you open the nozzle...  the volume on the nozzle side of the kink drains...   since the kink is limiting the flow.. you will only get a dribble after the first surge...


now.. lets think about digital volt meters...

if you measure a wire without a load consuming power on the end...   you get a static reading..

if you measure a wire with the current flowing through it.. you get a TRUE reading of how the current is flowing through the circuit...  

what...

copper wire has resistance...  so there when power is flowing through the circuit.(flowing not stationary). you will have slightly less voltage at the other end of the wire...    digital volt meters can measure this tiny difference in voltage...

if you get more than 0.04 or 0.02 volts on tests 2, 3, 4 you have an issue with the ground... this is 4/100 or 2/100 of a volt..

if you have over about 0.2 volts.. thats 2/10th of a volt voltage drop.. you have an issue...

using the jumper cables to bring the positive battery or the negative battery to a place where you can reach it with your digital volt meter leads...   i made long volt meter leads so i can reach around to long places...

[GPster]

Piecing your ideas with what I thought I knew and what I've done pokes another hole in my theories. I've never thought that there was any high amperage draw on the ignition switch because the amperage gauge never reads more than just a smidge higher than zero. Examining my theory and the way I wired it the only thing the amperage gauge will show me is if the alternator completely fails and the system is running on the battery alone or if there is current draw greater than the alternator can handle. If the ignition system (Autolite) is pulling as much as the alternator can put out than there's enough to FRY the ignition switch. The ammeter will need to see what what is going to the horn/lights/ignition switch splice if it's going to analize this problem. I was going to try to answer your questions by the theory I used to do the wiring and then do your tests to find how much more I could learn (or how much more I could get confused). Both battery terminals have two wires. Positive goes to the starter solenoid/relay (heavy wire) and the other wire to the ammeter. Negative goes to the engine block and to a body ground (which continues to the gauges and neutral safety switch and other uses under the dash).  Ammeter is wired with copper wire but #10 stranded which is wired into the factory wiring. so the weak link is the ignition switch. The in-line fuse had been eliminated and I didn't replace it thinking that the ammeter would show me a short. The other day a guy came to look at this Jeep because of the For Sale sign. We got to talking about interchangeability and he told me a lot of people were changing Jeep's Autolite ignition with "70s Chevy six cylinder HEI distributos by using the Jeep gear.I wonder if it's because the Autolite ignition systems are frying the GM ignition switches after they blow the main in-line fuses. GPster

[wayne petty]

the only problem with the autolite/duraspark ignition is the cheepness of the current units.  they tend to burn out kinda easily. leaving you stranded..  ( you should have a blue grommet module)  

red and white wire on one connector

green
purple
orange
black

on the other..

what's neat  is the module runs on the red wire.. but when you attach the white wire to the I terminal on the starter relay.. so it gets power while cranking.. this kicks in the 10 degree crank retard function..

some people are going to the 4 pin delco HEI module thats hidden inside the duraspark module case..   using a propane torch or a hot air gun to soften the potting compound to remove it with the circuit board.. drilling for the mounting of the HEI module..  

the black wire attaches to the case or the mounting screws...  

green wire to C..

red to B along with a condenser  the wire wire connects to a diode with the band toward the B terminal to allow the starter solenoid to still power the ignition during cranking..

G gets the purple wire..
W gets the orange wire.


i would probably use a HEI 3 wire harness to hook the B and C end of the module up as it has the condenser already there and gives you wires to connect to ..


i wish i was there.. as your jeep just does not sound that broken..  

i also wish i could explain things with less words and less drifting off subject..   goes to show.. make your kids wear helmets..

[wayne petty]

in your description of the wiring...

i worry that the amp meter is getting HOT...  and opening up..

you could also have a bad connection somewhere  between the battery and the amp meter

or the amp meter and the ignition switch...

do you have any volt meters laying around...

simplify your jeeps life..

yank the amp meter if its a separate gauge..  install the volt meter.. but the wiring is slightly different for a volt meter.

connect the pair of wires together with a small nut and bolt.. wrap them in tape to insulate them.   this allows you to revert back to an amp meter if you want to..  you can also .. just take one nut off and move that wire to the other side of the amp meter and put the nut back on top of the wire.. so now you would have on one stud...     amp meter..  nut.. wire, nut wire nut..  so one post of the amp meter is being used as a terminal post..


the volt meter gets a wire from switched power after the ignition..

with a volt meter installation. the alternator output is rewired  directly connected to the starter solenoid on the battery cable side...

[GPster]

With this problem and my questionable theory, I've been thinking that going to a voltmeter would be a wise move. The ammeter was part of a three gauge set that I had and I needed theoil pressure and water temperature because the stock gauges were junk. The dash had a voltmeter in it stock but it was junk too and I used the gauge set so I would have some check on electric too. The under dash wire for the voltmeter still exists as it also was power to the cigarette lighter and a good ground is easy as I had ran the extra wire from the battery negative terminal to body ground and under the dash. This gauge change will return the wiring to stock (except the deletion of the electric oil and temp gauges to mechanical gauges). My concern for the Autolite ignition system was more a concern over weither it would pull more amperage than the ignition switch would stand if it was failing. Now a new question. What should be the amperage for an in-line fuse for this vehicle? As I said, it had been removed and my books don't seem to have it's amperage any where. Cleaning-up/removing the ammeter wiring will give me a chance to make that right. I'll probably put in a fuse holder so that I can remove/change the fuse but maybe I should use what it takes rather than what I have on hand. Tomorrow is anoyher day and if it rains I won't be able to paint the chicken coop. GPster

[wayne petty]

if you want to protect the wiring... use a FUSIBLE LINK...

the proper sizing on a fusible link is 4 gauges smaller than the circuit its protecting..

so if you have a 10 gauge wire.. its 5 or 6 inches of 14 gauge fusible link...

10 = 14
12 = 16
14 = 18

i would really point directly at the CHEEP (more than likely) amp meter opening up .. and causing all your issues..