Harmonic Balancer Removal

[40]

I'm extremely busy building our new home but had a friend offer to work on my old Cad......He's rebuilding the oil pump among other things and is trying to remove the harmonic balancer.Says it appears to be pressed on but is having no luck removing it.The motor is a 429......Any secrets to removing  this animal? Thanks in advance for any help!

[wayne petty]

yes... a LOT of luck..

the 4. 5/16 bolts in an off square pattern are NOT strong enough to use only two to pull the balancer off..

you have a few choices...  do you have a drill press..  a scrap of plate steel..  

lay out the removed crank pulley on the scrap of plate steel.. 1/2 thick or thicker..   transfer the 4 offset holes to it.. and mark the center of the big opening..    if you have a big puller screw from another puller..  find a big nut that fits.. drill the 4 small holes.   center punch the center hole.. for drilling for the puller shaft..   use another nut to clamp the plate between them.. then weld the nut on the outer side..  of the plate..  so its centered..

do to the pilot flange.. you will want to take 4 7/16 nuts .. use 5/16 nuts and bolts to hold them on the rear face of the plate..  weld the nuts in place...

now you have a tool... where you can use longer 5/16 grade 8 bolts.. all the way through the HUB..  with grade 8 washers and nuts on the back side of the flange to spread the load..  then use the puller shaft to extract the massive HUB from the crank shaft..  its on a LONG ways..  and really tight..  

and if you think that i am wasting your time... having you build this tool...  just try to search out a replacement crank hub..

if you are not great at welding.. drill it.. mount the nuts... take it to a welding shop..   the 4 nuts are spacers.. to allow you to bolt it down tight..  this eliminates you needing to make a second plate with a big hole to fit over the crank pilot hub...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now...  if you have  a big bearing splitter and a 10 ton H bar puller..

http://www.harborfreight.com/large-bearing-separator-3979.html

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V0wToCN%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

warning.. this H beam puller is NOT wide  enough to do the job..

you will also have to verify that the H beam puller bolts actually fit with the splitter bolts..

i have also used a GIANT 2 jaw puller to pull on the bearing splitter..

you can clamp one of these behind the hub...  use the 10 ton H  beam puller to attach to the front and to pull the whole HUB off..

i have probably had to remove a dozen of these over the past 30 years...

i always used the bearing splitter and the 10 ton H beam puller..

this is the only way to get them off after you break the ears off..

[wayne petty]

i did some looking around;

the leg bolts on this set are TOO LONG

if you want to attempt this...   please use shorter shank bolts so the puller bar is closer to the hub..  and use washers and nuts behind the HUB as i want you to thread the puller leg screws all the way through. then use grade 8 washers and nuts on the back side to spread the load.. or you WILL break the outer flange off..




this is what you are going to be looking at once you get the crank pulley off.

just the hub sticking out..



this is why you will need to have it as close.. you have a long way to pull.. usually just one of the two sections..



please...   think about replacing the 3 piece timing set...

depending on the year... if you have a whole bunch of 7/16 head bolts..  please soak them for hours with wd40..   you will find they are corroded in.. and snap off way too easily..

machine shops make tons of money drilling out the 1/4 inch bolts that are broken off.   new bolts and antiseize.. so the next poor soul who has to take the water pump off has a fighting chance..   you will also want to carefully run a tap into each hole once you have it off..

i don't recall if NEW timing covers are available.. i seem to recall that they are from somebody..  but i am probably totally wrong...   USE EXTREME care with your cover..

i do think that you might want to check melling.. for oil pump components.. i know they came up with a new pump for one of the caddy motors a few decades ago.. GM gave melling their tooling for the that caddy pump..  i don't recall if it was the 429 or the 472/500 motors pumps..

[40]

Wayne....Thanks for the help/suggestions.It is off.....what a bugger! The housing doesn't look too bad....the old girl only has a little over 50K on the clock.I am replacing the timing set,rebuilding the oil pump,new water pump,fuel pump,power steering pump and a fresh rebuild on the carb as well as new valley pan,intake gaskets etc.Also a full tune-up with new plug wires.Am I missing anything that might need attention while I have it in pieces?Thanks again for the help!

[wayne petty]

by the way... i was surfing the net.. ran across a oil pump testing device..

bolt a chevy oil pump to the bottom of the plate...   there is a gauge threaded into the hole where the pump outlet is bolted to... an oil pump drive shaft and this device is dunked in a shallow bucket of oil.. the drill spins the pump up and you can check the pop off pressure..

in theory..   you could lay your timing cover gasket on a chunk of steel or aluminum scrap..    mark the holes for the suction line..  mark the holes for the pressure ...   mark holes for bolts  it only has to cover the local area of the oil pump passages in the timing cover..

this would allow you to BENCH test the oil pump...   by having some kind of oil feed... even if its a pipe nipple. to an ell.. to another nipple.. to a bell reducer.. with a longer larger nipple.. as an oil reserve..    

on the outlet.. a nipple. and the tee for the gauge...  with some kind of needle valve on the outlet.. so you can allow the pump to prime..   you could actually use a hose barb on the needle valve outlet..  to refill the pump reserve can above..   this would allow you to get a decent idea of what kind of flow at the oil pump relief pressure is...

this could be taken apart afterwards... so you will only be out a scrap of steel or aluminum and tapping pipe threads into the 2 openings..

this is just an idea... as when i worked in the engine builder.. we sent the timing covers out to the engine oil pump rebuilder down on slauson ave . L and B industries as i recall..

one additional thing..

you will want to GLUE the timing cover gasket to the timing cover..  

using super weather strip adhesive..  

sticking the gasket into the wet adhesive..   pulling it out..   making sure it made full contact...   letting it dry for a minute or two..  then really carefully setting the gasket into place..   using bolts to align the holes..  after another minute or two for the 2 surfaces to stick together..  take the bolts out.. check for perfect alignment...

turn the timing cover face down on a truly flat surface...  if you don't think its heavy enough. set something on it carefully..  this will push the super weather strip adhesive flat between the gasket and the timing cover..

after about 5 or 6 minutes.. it should be ready to install.. with a THIN THIN wiped on layer of ULTRA GREY silicone..    this is the BEST way to seal the timing cover to the engine... as you don't want oil leaks...

why glue the gasket to the timing cover with different glue..

so it does NOT move around...   why use ultra grey between the gasket face and the engine block..  

its far superior silicone sealer..  cures really firm..  specified by a LOT of OEM car makers for this type of situation..

i hope this also helps...

[chimp koose]

Whenever I do a timing chain I like to advance the cam 2 or 4 degrees. Just gives it a little more low end power and your in there anyways.

[40]

Well.....My buddy got the old Cad back together but is having a problem getting the old girl to run.I am nearly certain the #1 cylinder is front /passenger side...opposite of a small block Chevy..... and the firing order is 1,8,7,2,6,5,4,3. Top dead centered the motor,dropped the distributor in and it won't run.When he put in the new timing set,he mated the timing marks on the gears,just wondering if this is correct?Not sure what else for him to try......I am extremely busy and don't have time to drive there and help him......Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.....Thanks!!

[wayne petty]

429

firing order.. 18726543

front of engine...
_____#
___2___6
_7_______5
8_______4
__1___3
___#

rear of engine

the pound sign is the cap hold down screw.


clockwise rotation..
cylinder location numbering is the same as a small block chevy..

right 2 4 6 8   passenger side

left   1 3 5 7   drivers side




5 before TDC

ignition timing pointer is left of center on the block.. when standing in front of the car...  oops...  is just slightly to the passenger side...

10/5/0

oh. the timing chain marks..
cam mark at 6 o clock
crank mark at 12 o clock.

[enjenjo]

I believe you will find the timing is 180 out. Cam timing and distributor timing are 180 off on that engine.

[40]

Thanks Wayne.......I had been given some inaccurate info.....I was told the #1 cylinder was front/passenger side.....just the opposite of a small block Chevy.We had the timing correct and had the cam/crank marks set correctly so with the correct cylinder locations,we should be set.Thanks again and I'll keep you posted.

[40]

Duplicate Post

[40]

Frank.....Are you saying the cam mark and crank mark should both be at 12 O'Clock??

[enjenjo]

Frank.....Are you saying the cam mark and crank mark should both be at 12 O'Clock??

Yes, I believe that is the case for ignition timing. The cam will be in time with the mark at 6 oclock, or at 12 oclock, but I think the distributor has to be timed with the cam mark at 12 oclock. At least the later Cads were this way.

[40]

Well......The old girl is back on the road......but.....It's running really ragged and the idle is really rough.It ran really smoothly before we did the repairs.....We did find a fractured carb gasket and the intake was leaking....we took care of those issues while it was down.Seems now it's getting way too much fuel.....will check the carb settings tomorrow.....perhaps the carb was adjusted to compensate for the compromised gaskets?I think while I'm at it,I'll throw a rebuild kit in the old Q-Jet.The good news is that it appears the lifter noise and oil leaks are resolved.....Thanks for the help!

[wayne petty]

you have not mentioned what year it is... with a quadrajet probably a 67..

fixing vacuum leaks will require readjusting the carb...



please check the air injection valve.. where it dumps into the intake adaptor under the carb...  that will really dilute the air fuel ratio...



now all were equipped with it..   so i am just taking a wild guess.. from the history of my mind when i worked on a lot of these..

i worked on one 66... with a carter carb.. with air injection.. i managed to get my arm caught on the air tube to the pump .. he grabbed on tight... i stuck a vacuum gauge on it.. the smog pump created 23 inches of vacuum at idle..


i know that you guys know what you are doing.. but .. did you coat the intake gaskets with some gasket sealer...  so the opening are glued.

and that the intake was carefully positioned so its not on crooked or torqued one side before the other..  its really easy to get them on slightly crooked as i recall..  with a steel shim gasket.. it has to be perfect...

you don't happen to have one of the leak testing smoke machines in your shop do you???