Turbocharging

[enjenjo]

Any one here done a do it yourself turbocharger? I mean without a kit. I want to turbocharge a street motor, and don't know where to start on sizing, fuel system, ect. I have read what I could find, and came away more confused. Everything I find is either how to install a kit, or so advanced, I don't understand what they are talking about. I need some help getting over the hump.

For info, it's a 300 ci. V8, with an automatic trans, in a 3,900 lb car. I am not looking for a race setup, just a power adder for running in the mountains and so forth.

[phat46]

Frank, did you see the article about E Bay turbos in the Sept (!) issue of Car Craft?

[Beck]

I have been seeking to understand the turbo sizing also. It seems to be above me.
I do not get Car Craft. Did it say anything in favor of the DIY setups?
I believe it was last months Hot Rod that had a sidebar saying basically to forget the home brewed setups. The sidebar was labeled something about cheap turbos. There was a feature article about turbos in the issue.

I attend a few tractor pulls. The class I like best has tractors with diesel motors converted to alcohol. Most of these are major dollar investments. BUT - there is one guy local to me that has done all of his own work using a lot of cast off industrial parts. His motor has 3 turbos, working in 2 stages. These things are big! He doesn't make quite the HP the major players do but it is impressive what he has accomplished cheaply. He estimates he is making 3000 to 3500 hp with a about 550 cu. in. I have talked about these motor here before.

[enjenjo]

Frank, did you see the article about E Bay turbos in the Sept (!) issue of Car Craft?

Yes I did, and it seems to be more about what doesn't work, that what does. I bought a book about turbos a couple months ago, very technical, and it served to confuse me further. Hot Rod is pimping advertiser's parts, so not dependable in my eyes. Seems to be a lot of info on turbo Diesels, and turbo Ricers, but not much on what we use.

[Beck]

Seems to be a lot of info on turbo Diesels, and turbo Ricers, but not much on what we use.

All of my contacts are tractor pulling guys. From my understanding the sizing and calculations are different for gasoline. The tractor pulling guys are pushing an insane amount of air through the motors. More air, more fuel, more power. (melted pistons, broken cranks, rods out the side of the block)
With injection fuel management becomes another major issue. Even if the turbo sizing is perfect the fuel curves, and ignition timing would become a nightmare. There is the option of a pressurized carburetor. The tractor pulling guys are not allowed to run electronic injection. It must be mechanical.
MSD makes a 6AL box designed for boost. It is adjustable, and retards timing at boost. I have read about a few of the electronics designed to control fuel and ignition.
For mild tunes some of this may be overkill.

[wayne petty]

i know that you ask for first hand knowledge..

so.. feel free to delete these articles i snagged from 80 pages of search

i was going to try to put them in order or relevance.. but i gave up after i saw how many i have snipped out..

http://www.hotrod.com/sch/02/turbo/articles/index.html?SearchSource=SourceInterlinkMedia

i gave up here...

http://www.hotrod.com/sch/02/turbo/articles/page80.html?SearchSource=SourceInterlinkMedia



here are a bunch of articles that might help...

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0304_turp_compressor_map/index.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/0609dp_september_2006_tips_for_sizing_your_turbo/index.html

http://www.modified.com/features/0706_sccp_honeywell_turbo_technologies_iq_test/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0811_ford_mustang_turbo_size_guide/index.html

http://www.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/130_0512_turbo_tech/index.html

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0606_ht_turbo_sizing_tech/index.html




http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0804gmhtp_buick_turbo_power_trip_tech/index.html


http://www.importtuner.com/reviews/parts/0207_impp_turbo_charged/index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/induction_poweradders/sucp_0111_turbonetics_turbo/index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0102_turp_turbo_tech_buick_project/index.html

http://www.sporttruck.com/featuredvehicles/chevy/0309st_chevrolet_turbo_titan_3_concept_vehicle/index.html

http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticles/0410st_remote_mount_turbocharger_1999_gmc_sierra/index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/insidetechnology/turp_0410_squires_turbo_systems_emerging_technology/index.html

http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0903or_installing_aurora_plus_compound_turbo_system/index.html

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_060100_subterranean_turbo_system_install/index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/news/0304_turp_turbo_charging_strategies/index.html

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0907_turbocharged_engine_guide/index.html

http://www.modified.com/editors/technobabble/0306_sccp_hydracharger_future_turbos/index.html

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0309pon_1979_turbo_trans_am/index.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/0907dp_turbocharger_basics/index.html


http://www.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/130_0909_turbocharge_understanding_guide/index.html

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-0906-twin-scroll-turbo-system-design/index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0102_turp_turbo_tech_buick_project/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0406mm_focus/index.html

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2009/163_news090304_honeywell_new_turbo_system_for_diesel_v6_engines/index.html


i just was thinking about rex carsons twin turbo 65 malibu.. with the mufflers that dumped in front of the front tires..

i would guess that you are going to have to run stock exhaust manifolds.. and build a high temp exhaust pipe to mount the turbo on..

since many earlier exhaust systems used donuts for manifold to head pipe connections..   you might really want to look around for some that have a steel liner.. or have your exhaust guy custom expand a short section to fit tight..  prevents burn out..felpro Part Number: 61014 has a built in inner liner and looks like it will fit many gm applications..

for intercoolers.. you might want to check out the volvo 760 /  780 turbo cars.. they had one the the size of the condenser  and mounted it in front of the radiator...   there have been guys who welded several of them together and made new tanks..


i under stand this is not the exact answer you were looking for,.

[GPster]

Years ago (35) I had some buddies that played around some with turbos. One of them used a turbo pulling through a 2 barrel Holley or Autolite into a Ford 300 six in a work truck. He actually did it for work because the truck was a little too light for the jobs he found himself getting stuck with. He was pleased that when he had to bear down on it that more power would come. His brother got to playing with a turbo on a mini modified pulling tractor. He turboed  a worn out Ford 170 six and when the weight came on the sled the gradual strain on the engine caused the turbo to gradually come on. He was a local champ with it and would out pull a V8 that was twice it's size. The only thing not stock about the engine was when his brother was still running it in a car he had welded two extra flanges on the head (cast in intake manifold) so he could run three carbs. Two carbs and turbos off Corvair would be about right. GPster

[enjenjo]

since many earlier exhaust systems used donuts for manifold to head pipe connections.. you might really want to look around for some that have a steel liner.. or have your exhaust guy custom expand a short section to fit tight.. prevents burn out..felpro Part Number: 61014 has a built in inner liner and looks like it will fit many gm applications..

This will be on my Buick. The Buick V6 is just a V8 with two cylinders missing, and I have a pair of  Turbo V6 manifolds. They are made of Stainless, and by sacrificing a third manifold, I can make a pair of V8 manifolds easily.

I also have a V6 turbo. Common sense says it would work on a V8, just put out less boost, but from what I am reading, common sense is wrong. With 25 percent more exhaust flow, the turbo wheel will turn too fast, overheating the air charge. so I am told I need a turbo with a different A/R ratio, but am having difficulty figuring out what is right.

The links you provided will take me some time to read, I'll see if I have a better understanding then.

[kb426]

My exp. on gas engines revolves around the Accel kit from the 70's that had the bypass part that fit under a carb. It might have worked on a pickup pulling a trailer but for performance applications, it was terrible. The Mustang 5.0 guys have some stuff figured out real well but it's mostly efi. It's also high horsepower applications. EFI seems to be the answer to this question.

[enjenjo]

I have EFI. At this point it's TBI, but a change to batch fired port injection is not a big deal. All I need is a 64 two barrel aluminum manifold, and have injector bungs welded in. With a boost referenced fuel map, the electronics are pretty simple.

[wayne petty]

just curious...

i was looking at the turbo headers...  look like you are in for some major surgery..   do you have in your piles of stuff...  or can you fab up a replica crossmember and frame rails .. so you can bolt it to the engine as it hangs on the engine stand.. makes fitting headers easier..  steering shaft replicated..  heater box replicated..   upper control arms simulated..


this could be used on many A body custom fab work... like oil pan fitting and headers..

just a thought..

[enjenjo]

I have a spare engine, but that is about it. The Turbo manifolds already fit the chassis, I tried them. I just need to add one pipe for the fourth port to each one. the rest of the system is above the heads, and should be no problem.

[Bruce Dorsi]

I have EFI. At this point it's TBI, but a change to batch fired port injection is not a big deal. All I need is a 64 two barrel aluminum manifold, and have injector bungs welded in. With a boost referenced fuel map, the electronics are pretty simple.

Actually, you could probably use your throttle body as the air intake.  .....It's set-up for TPS already, and you could gut it, except for the throttle butterflies, if you go to port injection.  ......If you want to keep TBI, I think it could be modified for a blow-thru installation, which may be much simpler.

There are two methods for a turbo installation.  ......The turbo can be (1)between the throttle butterflies and the engine, or (2) the turbo can be ahead of the butterflies.  .
.....If you use multi-port injection or method #2, the turbo is only handling air.  
......If you use a carb or TBI with method #1, the turbo is handling an air/fuel mixture.

Under boost, the cfm of a carb or throttle body can actually increase above what it is rated for.

There are MAP sensors for boosted applications, but your computer would need to interpret the input.  .....Don't know what you are planning for engine management.

I did do a one-off turbo install on a Lotus Europa 4cyl back in 1975.  .....The engine was a 95ci (1558cc) Pinto shortblock with a Lotus DOHC head on top of basically stock Ford parts.  ......EFI was not available at that time.

There wasn't a lot of info available back then.  .....The people that KNEW rarely talked, and the people that TALKED rarely knew!  .....I learned a lot through trial and error.

A turbo does have to be sized to the engine, but along with that you must decide how much boost you want, and at what rpm.  .....Your compression ratio and engine components will limit the amount of boost you can run.  ......Adding an intercooler will allow more boost, but will complicate the installation.  .....Exhaust gas temperature and compressed-air temp also enter into the picture.   .......Every item seems to affect another.

The best info on sizing a turbo will come from the turbo manufacturer.  ...They have flow maps for each of their models.  .....Lots of calculations to be done, but I did it in the past, so it couldn't have been too complicated.

The size of turbo you select does not generally correlate between different manufacturers.  ......I used a turbo made by Schwitzer, which was marketed by Crane Cams at that time.  ......The Schwitzer turbos did not interchange with the Rajay, or Air-Research turbos which were around at the same time.  .....The size of the compressor and turbine wheels varied, as well as the design of the fins on the wheels, and the shape of the compressor and turbine housings.

Crane printed a nice manual showing how to select a turbo, and gave the formulas and flowmaps, but some of this info was specific to their turbos.  

For a given turbo, changing the turbine housing would control the speed of the turbo, which in turn changed the flow of the compressor.  ....The rpm at which boost occurs is largely controlled by the turbine housing.  

The size and shape of the compressor impeller and the compressor housing usually determined the cfm the turbo could generate at a given turbo rpm.

Turbo design played a huge part in the design of the system.  .....Along with the obvious mounting and connection differences, some turbos were fine for blow-thru applications but were not intended for suck-thru applications.

At that time, water-cooled turbos were not used on auto applications.  .....They also did not have built-in wastegates or ball-bearings.  ......A lot has changed since then.

Perhaps a turbo for a 5.0 mustang would be a good selection for your similar-sized Buick engine.  

It will take me a long time to read thru Wayne's links, so I don't know what you will find there.

What turbo book did you get/read?  .....Some are better than others.

I'll help if I can!

[wayne petty]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/Garrett_Turbo_System_Optimization.pdf

looks like the same thing.. but in power point..

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/SEMA-2008_Turbo_System_Optimization.pdf

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbo_application_search/turbo_search.jsp

twisted in a slightly different way.. but probably easier to understand.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

there are more sections in the left frame..

[Mac]

Frank, I was following your 300 build, planning to TBI my 283. Have you put miles on the Buick and found it lacking or are you chasing more power on general terms? A Grand National Long-roof