Muncie 4 speed

[zzebby]

I row the gears in my daily and it's no fun cause of bad clutch chatter on take off no matter haw gently I try it.  Been living with this for over a year and was stumped on the cause.  First assumption was the pilot bearing of course,  but it showed no wear.  Put in a new one anyway and still had the chatter.   Thought it might have been the Lakewood bell off center so swapped it for a factory bell and new clutch at the same time.  Was better for a few hundred miles,  but now back to chatter.  Is really shaky  in reverse.
Could it be that the trans input shaft does not stick out far enough to ride in the pilot bearing   I'm not familiar with manual trans,  but is there a thrust bearing or spacer that could be missing and cause the shaft to be too far into the trans  ?   Also the thing shifts great until I try to slip it into 4th.   Then there is always a crunch.  Not a grind,  just a crunch.  Double clutching going into 4th helps,  but not always.
I'm tired of laying on my back lifting this thing in and out so before I do it again ..........educate me.

[Mikej]

Did you have the flywheel cleaned up when you put in the new clutch?

[GPster]

Just trying to remember how these things work. I'd wonder some about the transmission. Having to double-clutch into fourth I'd have to question  the 3-4 syncro. Fourth gear is just a collar that ties the mainshafts together giving you the on-to-one gearing and it has a syncro on it. Double clutching is doing the work of the syncro. I suppose if the front shaft ran out of alignment because of a faulty bellhousing it would not let  the fourth gear mainshaft coupling align but double clutching wouldn't overcome that problem. But to me it sounds like two problems. While you have the transmission out for new syncros I'd have the flywheel faced. Might also check the face of the pressure plate for heat cracking and check the thickness of the clutch plate against new for wear. I never had those problems. Just trying to imagine what would cause them remembering how it all fits together. GPster

[enjenjo]

it sounds like you have a bad 4th syncro, but that shouldn't make the clutch chatter. How old are the motor, and trans mounts, they are a common cause for clutch chatter.

[zzebby]

Flywheel was new billet when I put it all together about 2000 miles ago. New mounts both motor and trans then too.  Replaced  the pressure plate with the clutch about 500 miles ago.
I agree on the 4th gear syncro it must be bad.
The clutch chatter is what's bugging me.  Got to be the input shaft not running in the pilot bearing.    Could the input shaft not be sticking  out enough ??
Some days the chatter is worse than other days and sometimes it is smooth,  so I think things are moving around.
66 Chevelle with big block.

[enjenjo]

Did you install a new pilot bushing?

[GPster]

Flywheel was new billet when I put it all together about 2000 miles ago. New mounts both motor and trans then too.  Replaced  the pressure plate with the clutch about 500 miles ago.I agree on the 4th gear syncro it must be bad.The clutch chatter is what's bugging me.  Got to be the input shaft not running in the pilot bearing.    Could the input shaft not be sticking  out enough ??Some days the chatter is worse than other days and sometimes it is smooth,  so I think things are moving around.66 Chevelle with big block.

I would think that if the input shaft wasn't long enough the hub of the clutch might be running on the ends of the splines of the input shaft. I've never heard of the pilot bearing problem but I know that some input shafts have a snap ring on the (under the throw-out bearing collar) to keep the input shaft from being pushed back into the tranny. If there was supposed to be one and it's not there that input shaft could also be crowding the 3-4 syncro. The other bellhousing didn't have a block protector plate (1/4"steel) and you left it on with the stock bellhousing? Just ideas, GPster

[Dave]

Ok my turn.. Ive broken a bunch of these  If the input shaft isnt long enuff to seat in the pilot bushing what is gonna happen and shoulda by now is the front shaft breaks off the clutch takes a hike and everything ends up on the pavement. Yup I know for a fact!  There is sumpin else causing the chatter if you havent managed to break it.  Did you have the pressure plate resurfaced? If there is any oil or contaminates on the pressure plate that will lead to chatter but  if the problem is fixed it should cure itself.. Rear main leak maybe. If its bad enuff that = chatter cause of oil on the pressure plate or the clutch..
Good luck on this one.....
Dave

[CQQL33]

This may sound stupid but, way back around the time dirt was being discovered, I had a problem such as you describe with my '57 Chevy.    
I, like you, checked everything looking for the worst, except one thing, totally unrelated.......    Check your carburetor and make sure the choke butterfly is secured.    The chatter problem could be coming from the choke flapping under load both in reverse and in first gear.   I know this does not sound right but this is what I found.   I had an automatic (thermostatically controlled) choke and the wound spring was broken which was causing the choke to flutter causing chatter in my car.......your concern sounds the same as mine was......    Check it out anyway, it may be the answer and save you a lot of pain.   Let us know if this is a cure.

[bowtietillidie]

I have read everybody's reply . Heres mine    Drive the car at highway speed or what speed it Vibrates .    Push the clutch to the floor and let it back out .  If the vibration changes or stops change the pilot bearing and look very closely at the main shaft bearing .   Grab the main shaft and move in all directions .   If the pilot bearing end of the main shaft can be moved in any direction more than .250 the bearing needs changed.   Next take your clutch plate.  hold the friction plate with one hand , take a large pair of channel locks grab the clutch hub and try to rotate  cw and ccw  If there is any movement replace the clutch disk  .   also check the springs in the clutch  
hub if any are loose or broken replace the clutch disk

[zzebby]

WOW ,  lots of good input.
I've changed the pilot bearing 2 or 3 times.  Was thinking that it seemed to sit far in the crank which made me think that the shaft was not riding in it?  It was a buddy who redid the trans for me years ago.  It sat under the bench a good 10 yrs.  Is there a thrust bearing that could have been left out??
I'm saving $  to redo the muncie and at the same time solve the clutch chatter.  It is not oil,  fresh engine, uses no oil and still clean.  When I get it apart I'll measure shaft length vs dimension to pilot.
thanks guys

[bowtietillidie]

There are no thrust brgs in a Muncie The gears are cut so as to cancel  
  thrust.   there is snap ting in the back on the main out put shaft.                      
   If this was left out or broken it causes a noise in all gears and  if  
   long enough can cause  problems with the case and 3&4 synro.
   In general it will play hell with your transmission .    The pilot brg is suppose to install flush with the face of the hole lives in and is also supposed to be an interference fit .    I always install a pilot brg with an old clutch input shaft and a 3 lb hammer with light taps .   Before somebody says there is thrust brgs in a muncie.    There are thrust washers on the end of the cluster gear . They are supposed to be at the front of the cluster.    I have rebuilt Muncies that those thrust washer were clear gone and the transmission performed fairly well

[tomslik]

what kinda clutch?
hipo?
rebuilt?
new stocker?
diaphram?
b&b? long style?

[donsrods]

Looks like only thing you haven't changed out is the tranny itself.  If you can borrow one from a buddy to try, see if that eliminates the problem.

I would also look at your clutch linkage for binding , misalignment, and smooth travel.

Don

[zzebby]

The first clutch was a hipo  Hays,  now it is stock,  both were diaphram type.
Pilot bearing has always been a press fit and I checked that it had no play on the input shaft before I installed it.