OT / Auto Alternator for emergency Power! Any ideas?

[GPster]

I always wondered how much power it would take to roll an alternater to charge. When Crosley starts wondering about a bicycle for the pits at Bonneville I wondered if you had a battery powered golf cart if you had a weed wacker 2 cycle motor would it turn an alternater to keep the batteries in the golf cart charged? GPster

[rooster]

Im a little confused about all this but it seems 3000 watts is over kill to run such a small blower motor, besides I dont think he would spend the 600 cash for this arrangement. Cant get through to him now his phone is 110V and his cell is probly in the car getting charged.

Is the rating for watt usage different for motors with brushes and no brushes different? The blower fan in my heater has no brushes, his probly dont either.

[Fat Cat]

Im a little confused about all this but it seems 3000 watts is over kill to run such a small blower motor, besides I dont think he would spend the 600 cash for this arrangement. Cant get through to him now his phone is 110V and his cell is probly in the car getting charged.

Is the rating for watt usage different for motors with brushes and no brushes different? The blower fan in my heater has no brushes, his probly dont either.

Electric motors are usually rated by amp draw not wattage. So if you look at this page http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/genwat.asp it shows that a 1hp motor needs 2300 watts on startup and 1000 watts to run. I was basing my 3000 watt figure on the inverters installed in the larger motor coaches we service which have a furnace much like a house in them.

In the Class A coaches with a furnace/air conditioning combination system they have a 5000-7500 watt generator with 2-630 or 730 amp deep cycle batteries and a 3000 watt charger/inverter.

The Class c coaches have a 3500-5000 watt generator and 2-630 amp battieries and a 2000 wat inverter.

[GPster]

Is the rating for watt usage different for motors with brushes and no brushes different? The blower fan in my heater has no brushes, his probly dont either.

This would just be an easy explanation of motors that is not technical at all. If you figured wattage as horsepower it might make it a little easier to put you in the realm. Watts is sometimes expressed as voltage times amperage Which is why the wire to a car starter can be smaller for 12V than 6V because the wire is rated for amperage and if you double the voltage you can half the amperage for the similar amount of work/watts). Direct drive blower motors in furnace blowers are usually "shaded pole" because they are not trying to start against that much resistance ( not electrical in OHMs) and they can lumber along til they reach their desired speed (1000RPM?). Now a regular motor that is used on a belt drive blower  may not be asked to do any more work (1000RPM blower speed) but it is a motor that is hooked up to a speed reduction unit (pulleys and a belt) so the motor may have to reach 1800 RPM to run the fan at 1000 RPM . These motors have a start swich that works on a centrifagal switch and it actually has two sets of windings in it and the start winding and the run winding are both in use until the centrifugal switch drops out the start winding. This is one of the reasons for the increased amperage draw during start. If the motor doesn't come up to speed then the overload protection in the motor will drop out due to the increased amperage draw. Now after this you have various kinds of "Hard Start" motors that have a capacitor wired into the start winding to give the added boost if the motor has to start against a load. The compressors in a refrigerators might be in this realm. To make it simpler to understand , the compressor in your shop might start fairly easy if the tank has no pressure on it but if it's asked to start against 100# of pressure in the tank it may burden some. How quick it needs to start may not be the same but the load that it starts against and the way it does it has an effect on the starting amperage. You may oversize a motor to get the job started  but when you see the amperage draw a run it will probably be closer to what (Watt) is actually needed. There are a lot of variables to this lesson. Not all compressors start against a load and not all capacitors are for that starting jolt and not all motors that have a start and a run winding have a centrifugal switch. I know by now I've bored everyone but my way of looking at these situations is how much of this stuff do you really need. All the heat generated by this 8 HP generator running outside might be better use if it's a 3 1/2 HP lawn mower engine turning 2 alternators while running in the basement. One question: if you're running lawn mower engines should you be naked? GPster

[phat46]

This is an good thread. Lots of interesting ideas and info. I doubt that the furnace motor in question is over 1/3 horse. I installed furnaces for a few years and never saw a motor larger than that, most being 1/4 horse and many had capacitor start. The invertor that I am thinking about is one that is meant to be permanatly mounted to a vehicle. I see them on off road applications to power such things as drills and other small power tools. I don't think any batteries are involved other than the vehicle battery for starting. As far as the 24 volt gas valve goes there is a tranformer on the funace to step down the 120 AC to 24 DC. All the furnaces I have seen have a simple two wire (plus ground) hook up. The only furnaces i have ever seen with the pilot generator gas valves, that is they need no outside power to them, are gravity furnaces, ( no blowers) or small space heaters with no blowers. this kind of set up would be ideal in a no power situation, but I'm sure they are even more rare today than when I installed furnaces 30 years ago!!!   I like the idea of the two alternators on an old lawn mower but DON'T run it in the basement or you'll wake up dead!!!!!  

[38fordcoupe]

I'VE GOT THE POWER!!!!!   Yes sir ,my electric is back on and the furnace is running its * off ,but thats ok.  HEAT BABY, THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN ABOUT.  The old saying "You don't know what you've got until you lose it" is so true.  Even after a day without power I would find myself reaching for a light switch whenever I went into a different room. DAAAAH !  We are certainly creatures of habit.
I want to thank everyone that replied to ROOSTERS post.  All of you had great and helpful replies. Definitly food for thought.  
 Rooster, thanks man.
Now I have a favor to ask of all of you. Give ROOSTER a rash of * to get his hotrod back together. He missed all of last summers activities. Thanks again to all of you.

[rooster]

We are going to have to get something made up and use the inverters I found a great place for info for the building of something to suite emergency need only, there are some great tips on this site , and usage charts to get a idea of what can be expected from a homemade system! we need to find out exactly what HP blower motors we have! Remember those B&S 5hp engines I sold at riverport swap meet ? That was a wrong move! Oh Well!

heres the site:
http://theepicenter.com/tipoweek.html

Thanks again everyone for there help
Denny

[Mr Cool]

I like the idea of the two alternators on an old lawn mower but DON'T run it in the basement or you'll wake up dead!!!!!  

Wake up dead?
That makes alot of sense.....

[Mr Cool]

If you really want to setup a backup power system at home, do it properly.
I do this for a living, so I know what works and what doesnt.
Firstly, get a decent inverter, something like the SW series from Xantrex, made in the USA. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/45/p/1/pt/18/product.asp
This is what I have installed at my place, I have the 4500 watt 48v model, and I can run it at 6kw for about 20 minutes if I need to. I also have a 1860 watt solar array, and a 1000 watt wind turbine (soon upgrading to a 10kw ), so I can charge the batteries as I draw from them without any problems.
The SW inverter/charger is connected to the mains power which will keep the batteries fully charged and maintained in good condition, will automatically change-over to battery power if the mains fails, and it also has a connection point for a backup generator, which incidentally can be automatically started if the batteries get low on charge. All of these features are standard equipment, including the generator autostart, glow-plug warming etc etc.
As a bonus, it can even sell excess electricity back to the utilities generated from solar panels or wind turbines.
I am using ALL of these features above and never have to touch a thing, except make sure there is fuel in the generator, so I havnt had a power failure for years, even though my neighbours get them regularly.

Im not trying to sell you anything either, Im kinda located over the other side of the planet to you guys, but I can advise what works and what doesnt. Hope this helps a bit.

[rooster]

If you really want to setup a backup power system at home, do it properly.
I do this for a living, so I know what works and what doesnt.
Firstly, get a decent inverter, something like the SW series from Xantrex, made in the USA. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/45/p/1/pt/18/product.asp
This is what I have installed at my place, I have the 4500 watt 48v model, and I can run it at 6kw for about 20 minutes if I need to. I also have a 1860 watt solar array, and a 1000 watt wind turbine (soon upgrading to a 10kw ), so I can charge the batteries as I draw from them without any problems.
The SW inverter/charger is connected to the mains power which will keep the batteries fully charged and maintained in good condition, will automatically change-over to battery power if the mains fails, and it also has a connection point for a backup generator, which incidentally can be automatically started if the batteries get low on charge. All of these features are standard equipment, including the generator autostart, glow-plug warming etc etc.
As a bonus, it can even sell excess electricity back to the utilities generated from solar panels or wind turbines.
I am using ALL of these features above and never have to touch a thing, except make sure there is fuel in the generator, so I havnt had a power failure for years, even though my neighbours get them regularly.

Im not trying to sell you anything either, Im kinda located over the other side of the planet to you guys, but I can advise what works and what doesnt. Hope this helps a bit.

A full blowned Thomas Edison setup is not in the budget!
It really sounds like you have a very good setup. No worries about heat in the winter or spoiling food in freezer in the summer.

In a winter outage I would like it support:
Gas furnace (full size modern gas with glow igniter,  has circuit board)
Freezer
Ice box
2 60W light bulbs
Microwave

In a summer outage I would like to support:
Freezer
icebox
2 60w light bulbs
small box fan

I would like to also support a small TV set .
From what I can see at this point is if I get a inverter large enough to support the winter
needs it would cover the summer needs easily.

There is alot I dont know about this but I have a few questions maybe you can help.
The question I would have is :

If I charge a 12V battery with the use of one 94 amp alt will this be enough , in the winter?

Would 2 alternators  and 2 batteries be better?

Should I expect the batterys to be damaged because of this type of use?

I plan to charge the batteries with a 5 hp gas engine , but IM not sure it can handle the load of  2 alts, what would you suggest ?

(anyone)
How much gas could I expect to use per day running a 5hp engine ?

Thanks for the input.
Denny

[Fat Cat]

A full blowned Thomas Edison setup is not in the budget!
It really sounds like you have a very good setup. No worries about heat in the winter or spoiling food in freezer in the summer.

In a winter outage I would like it support:
Gas furnace (full size modern gas with glow igniter,  has circuit board)
Freezer
Ice box
2 60W light bulbs
Microwave

In a summer outage I would like to support:
Freezer
icebox
2 60w light bulbs
small box fan

I would like to also support a small TV set .
From what I can see at this point is if I get a inverter large enough to support the winter
needs it would cover the summer needs easily.

There is alot I dont know about this but I have a few questions maybe you can help.
The question I would have is :

If I charge a 12V battery with the use of one 94 amp alt will this be enough , in the winter?

Would 2 alternators  and 2 batteries be better?

Should I expect the batterys to be damaged because of this type of use?

I plan to charge the batteries with a 5 hp gas engine , but IM not sure it can handle the load of  2 alts, what would you suggest ?

(anyone)
How much gas could I expect to use per day running a 5hp engine ?

Thanks for the input.
Denny

If that is what your after why not just order one of these? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_438_438 It should cover all the stuff you listed and has a 3125 watt capacity. It is only $299 plus shipping, that seem alot cheaper than getting a $600 inverter, 2-600 amp deep cycle batteries at $60-100 each plus the cost of a 5hp engine.

[rooster]

Alot of unknowen's right now FatCat! That would be a simple solution, shipping would be right at 100 bucks here. I wonder how eletronic friendly thay are with things like computers and tv sets, digetal clocks, ect.

It sounds to me you could just wire up the inverter to the car and your good to go. Like some here have sugested. The inverter's I have been looking at employ the SW wave witch smoothes things out, There may be 2 kinds of SW waves, I have read alittle about True SW wave.

Your right about the price though!

I have plenty of alts with regulater built in also have a selection belts and pullys. Batterys would come out of idel cars at the time , none would be deep cycle though! For engines I have some, just depends whats the best way to go for a extended power outage, lets say 7 days.  I have a 7hp B&S vertical shaft, very good condition ele/start! Also have a 5 hp Jauger hit an miss engine, horzonal shaft, 1 Cushman I think 5 hp, 2 Fairmount Railroad engines 5 hp, The Fairmounts I think would work best, I believe thay have 6V alts on them now, they would be loud though.

[Fat Cat]

Alot of unknowen's right now FatCat! That would be a simple solution, shipping would be right at 100 bucks here. I wonder how eletronic friendly thay are with things like computers and tv sets, digetal clocks, ect.

Well I know that 1 out of 5 coaches I work on have a computer in them. All of them have generators installed in them. The newer gen sets on the market are real good on maintaining a steady output signal.

Batterys would come out of ideal cars at the time , none would be deep cycle though!

That could be a problem. The deep cycle batteries will allow for a more sustained load and require lower charging rates. Every coach I see come in with regular batteries in the house part are there for battery replacement. When hooked to an inverter they become discharged so quickly that the charger has to overload them to keep them charged and they cook internally and eventually short out.

[1FATGMC]

......................If I charge a 12V battery with the use of one 94 amp alt will this be enough , in the winter?..........

Watts is (amps) X (volts), so if the alt. put out 94 amps at say 14 volts that would mean in theory it would produce 1316 watts.  If you were using more than 1316 watts you would be going in the hole and the alt would not be keeping up with the demand and the battery would have to make up the difference until it was dead.  Probably not too long.

You could probably sell the Cushman motor for enough to buy a good generator .

c ya,

Sum

[GPster]

The best generators that I have seen might set you back a little but you might find more uses for it. They're usually a red trailer and they have Lincoln on the side. GPster