Detroit-isn't it about the product?

[jaybee]

After the recent discussion about concept vehicles I thought it would be OK to post this subject:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10617131/

The article discusses ditching brands and models that "feel old".  It's hard for me to believe the problem is the Buick brand--It's the Buick product.  No one would suggest dropping the Mercedes nameplate just because it's 100yrs old.  I understand efficiencies of scale and the inefficiency of multiple, almost identical models, but that doesn't seem to be the real focus of what's happening.  I also differ from the advice that the American brands drop entire classes of cars and concentrate on what's most profitable--pickups and SUVs.  First of all, the writing is already on the wall.  The Japanese are getting serious about pickups and SUVs and Detroit won't have that sandbox all to themselves much longer.  Secondly, trucks are as profitable as they are because they're popular.  One day the winds of fashion will blow from a different direction, then where will they be?

[unklian]

Classic short sighted north american coporate "thinking",
looking for a quick and easy answer to solve a long term problem.
Usually the latest fad,found in some trade publication.

Generally results in large bonuses for a select few,
and unemployment for many more.


Problems ALWAYS take longer to solve,than they do to create.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

same thinking GM had with the Camaro. Sales were way down , they dropped the Camaro.  

A fairly stoopid move IMHO.  The Camaro had become a boring design , still had plenty of power if equipped correctly.

[enjenjo]

I find it hard to understand, that in 1984 Oldmobile had the most popular model, the Cutlass, and 20 years later it's gone.

What I saw GM doing, was trying to reposition the Olds to appeal to 20 somethings, and in the process, they lost the people who bought it.

Now they are doing the same thing with Buick, and Pontiac. My father is in the market for a new car, he has driven Buicks for over 50 years now. They have discontinued the LeSabre, which his last three cars have been, and are trying to sell him a LaCrosse. I don't think he is going for it. For one thing, it's considerably smaller inside, and of course the price has gone up a bunch. He's looking at Toyota.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

I find it hard to understand, that in 1984 Oldmobile had the most popular model, the Cutlass, and 20 years later it's gone.

What I saw GM doing, was trying to reposition the Olds to appeal to 20 somethings, and in the process, they lost the people who bought it.

Now they are doing the same thing with Buick, and Pontiac. My father is in the market for a new car, he has driven Buicks for over 50 years now. They have discontinued the LeSabre, which his last three cars have been, and are trying to sell him a LaCrosse. I don't think he is going for it. For one thing, it's considerably smaller inside, and of course the price has gone up a bunch. He's looking at Toyota.

yep.... that Curlass sold well too!

[phat46]

I think the American companies in general are followers. G.M. is the worst, they just react to the market after it's direction is set. Seems like they are always playing catchup, with the exception of a very few cars, all their vehicles are dated, rehashed versions of what they already can't sell, and by the time they catch on to what people want they are way behind. Chrysler and more so lately, Ford, is taking chances and bringing new products out that is not follow the leader stuff. If they want to be world leaders again any time soon they have to learn how to lead. A NEW redesign of the Camaro would have been much better than killing it, the media hype alone might have made the car desirable. Look at the press they got from the Detroit autoshow with that ugly (IMHO) thing they trotted out there. I see that G.M. is now going to be making big pay cuts to the upper eshelon people and going to halve their dividends....sounds to me like they are circling the drain....

[Crosley.In.AZ]

True , GM follows .

I bought a Ford F-150 crew cab 1/2 ton truck in 2001 model year.  

Gm came out with a crew cab HD 1/2 ton  2 years later IIRC.

Ford has a 6 automatic tranny in some of it's upscale SUV's 1 year ago.

GM just released a 6 speed automatic in the 2006 Corvette

Even Dodge gets new stuff to the market faster than GM.

[unklian]

GM is now looking to sell off,and kill off,as many divisions as they can.
Then,one at a time,they will all quietly go bankrupt,to get out from
under the huge pension and health care obligations they now face.



If they had their act together,they would still have over 50% of the market,like they did in the late '60s.Instead,for the most part,they put
out weak,unimaginitive,copies of the competitions designs.

[donsrods]

In general, I think American car companies are in trouble. The reason all of us on this forum build older American cars is because they were solid and had something unique about them. Those days are gone, and our foriegn competition is starting to become dominant. The Japanese and others are building cars that work and give us what we want.

In business, I used to travel about 50,000 miles a year, via car, so I bought Toyota Corollas. Even when I had 160,000 miles on one, they kept on running. Finally, I went out an bought a brand new Mercury Cougar, because my customers were giving me a hard time about buying foreign cars. Right from the git go, it started to fall apart. Arm rests broke, wipers flew off, turn signal levers snapped off, etc. At 20,000 miles the engine locked up.

One day when talking to my Ford Rep in Detroit, or wherever they are, he told me that my "American" Ford had the Canadian body and the  Mexican engine!!  So much for buying American.

I am in the marine industry, and we sell every brand of outboard motor. Without a doubt, Yamaha makes the best engine out there, and they back them up with service that is unmatched. We never get a hassle when we call them to get one done under warranty. Mercury and OMC fight us every step of the way.

American companies had better wake up.

[rumrumm]

The problem in Detroit is that the companies are run by bean counters and the creative people have nothing to say. The Duntov's and the Harley Earl's of today don't exist because Harvard educated business geeks think they know what the public wants and do not want to take any risks. And they are not forward-thinking creative people. GM took a lot of risks on the early Corvette and it did not get popular until it got a V8. Today, GM would have killed it for its poor sales the first two years. They build the SSR pickup that most guys cannot afford, the Aztec which is butt-breath ugly, boring sedans, and they kill the Camaro and Firebirds rather than replace them with something people could  get excited about. It is no wonder they are losing out to Japanese. Can all the valley girls out there please give a collective "Well, duhhhhh!"

[Aaron51Chevy]

A big problem is the culture, yeah it's a buzz word and is moronic but it's true.  What is happening at the big 3 is nothing new.  How many american motorcycles are there?  How many american tv's or raidos?  Not too many, why?  
Culture.  I watched a docutmentary from the 60's of two tv companies, one in Ohio, one in Japan.  The guys in Ohio were union, us vs. them and just there to collect a paycheck and get the hell out at 5.  produced the same cash cow tv for 30 years.
Japan had a culture EVERYBODY wanted to see the product succeed and everyone gave input to the design, a floor worker could go to the CEO and suggest changes!  Well which one do you think is still in business.  Say what you will about how management runs a company but it takes two to tango.  
Me being a "salary" guy along with my wife (GMAC) and I see how the unions SUCK AND SUCK from the big 3 for today and who gives a * about tomorrow mentality and then bad mouth the hands that feed them, maybe it would be better for GM to file for banktruptcy just to loose that...
Wish I got the benefits they did and could still * and moan about how it's not enough...

[Mikej]

No one from the big 3 have asked me but for a fee, I would be more than willing to give them advice. EMAIL ME

[donsrods]

You have called that one right on the nose, in my opinion.  A good friend went to Japan a few years ago to train at a company there. The employees start the day off by standing in formation, singing the company song, then do exercises to get themselves motivated, then go to work. If an employee ever thought of changing jobs, he or she would be blackballed.

I'm not saying that is what we need to do here, but it shows the level of dedication to the job they have. I worked in a union plant, and I was non-union office staff. I couldn't even walk into our own plant and move one box, as I was promptly escorted out, because a Union worked had to do it. I am kind of a Get 'er done kind of guy, so I was in trouble all the time for overstepping my "boundries."

My ex-girlfriend has a 1988 Honda Accord, and everything still works, the upholstery looks like new (my new Cougar headliner fell on my head in 2 years) and it is simple to work on and dependable to a fault.

I see all this stuff going overseas, and it sickens me, but I understand why. People will buy what they perceive as the best value and product, regardless of where it came from.

[enjenjo]

The unions have the power they do, because the companies gave it to them. And the guy on the floor is that way because management wanted them that way.

I was a loyal company employee, even though I was in a union, but it was real hard to stay that way when management wanted you to do things that damaged the bottom line profit, and the reputation of the company, because that is what they wanted you to do. It was hard to stay that way when upper management would back a floor supervisor who was dead wrong, just because he was supervision. It was hard to stay that way when I came up with an idea that saved the company over $100,000 a year, and still is 20 years later, and I got a $25 dollar gift certificate. It was hard to stay that way when I gave them an idea, only to be told it was stupid and unworkable, only to have is adopted a year later as their idea. It was hard to stay that way when average production times, would get you discipline. It was hard to stay that way when you were told to do a job half way, and then disciplined for doing it by the same supervisor. But I managed to do it. And I got out when I could.

There were many years when I took no pride in telling people where I worked, it was a source of embarrassment. Because they had a reputation of screwing both their customers and their employees. They eventually had to change when they lost so much market share they were no longer the 500 lb gorilla they had been. The same position GM, and Ford find themselves in now.

[river1]

The unions have the power they do, because the companies gave it to them. And the guy on the floor is that way because management wanted them that way.

I was a loyal company employee, even though I was in a union, but it was real hard to stay that way when management wanted you to do things that damaged the bottom line profit, and the reputation of the company, because that is what they wanted you to do. It was hard to stay that way when upper management would back a floor supervisor who was dead wrong, just because he was supervision. It was hard to stay that way when I came up with an idea that saved the company over $100,000 a year, and still is 20 years later, and I got a $25 dollar gift certificate. It was hard to stay that way when I gave them an idea, only to be told it was stupid and unworkable, only to have is adopted a year later as their idea. It was hard to stay that way when average production times, would get you discipline. It was hard to stay that way when you were told to do a job half way, and then disciplined for doing it by the same supervisor. But I managed to do it. And I got out when I could.

There were many years when I took no pride in telling people where I worked, it was a source of embarrassment. Because they had a reputation of screwing both their customers and their employees. They eventually had to change when they lost so much market share they were no longer the 500 lb gorilla they had been. The same position GM, and Ford find themselves in now.

well said frank

sounds like the place i work :cry:

i'm lookin to get out as soon as i can  if i can hold out that long

later jim