Ramblers Rotten Rail

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 12:09:30 AM

Yup, still around

So anyways, I pulled the 195.6 yesterday, it got sold to a guy in LA. (believe it or not, used my neighbors backhoe..worlds most expensive engine hoist..and it worked GREAT). Back to the point..I noticed the frame rail on the drivers side, right next to the steering box, is rotten. from the wheelwheel (outside) in, but not through to the engine bay. But it looks iffy.

So What I am expecting here..take off the entire front body panels down to the subframe, and call in a welder? I'm not excited about the prospect of removing all that funky IFS front suspension, but no sense building something on a rotten frame. I can post a pic in a few days.

GPster · January 29, 2006, 08:10:14 AM

I've been known to be wrong to be wrong , but let's start with this idea. If I remember correctly the front suspension on this thing is similar to early Ford Falcons and Chevy IIs in that the coil springs are mounted above the upper "A" frames of the suspension and their uni-body structures are the inner fender wells of the front end. Those inner fender wells may provide a lot of support to the structure but they can also supply headachs to the engine change because of width sticking into the engine compartment. Now I know Colorado is not like the Mid-Ohio Valley but sometimes when rust finds it's way into a frame box it can go quite a way inside and not be detected so I'd be real good at checking around that steering box. My suggestion would be to find a new front suspension kit that would steer with a rack and pinion and have it's coil spring pockets built into it. Unfortunately I'd think the Pacer is too wide so that kind of puts you in line with a Mustang II. Just the start of an Idea but I have a 4 year old granddaughter that wants breakfast. How's you kid doing? GPster

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 11:23:39 AM

Quote from: "GPster"I've been known to be wrong to be wrong ,

never! Yeah, the suspension is like you described. The real rust is on the lower rail..I need to dig at it and see how bad it is. If its somethat thats not rotten all the way to Denmark, I'd be happy with some plates welded in for reinforcement..this will neeeever be a shiny show car, just something neat on the road. But if it looks like something that will need a new front clip for the rails..that may be out of my range for this project. I sure hope not, I'm really itching to get rollin on it. (dang Jeep truck sucks up too much time). I take some pics today and see how bad it is.

Rowan's doing great!! She turns 2 the end of this month..and she's the size of a big 4 year old. it's all crazy but I love her

donsrods · January 29, 2006, 11:30:38 AM

I agree with GPster......rust can be a B#@$%. I came from Pennsylvania originally, and fought rust all my life. You would do well to cut out all the nasty stuff you can see, and replate everything. Or, as GPster has suggested, build a whole new front section out of rectanqular tubing.

I actually had a Rambler with a 371 Olds in it, back in about 1963. Mine was about a 1953 station wagon, the little wagon that had the top half of the front wheels covered by body. All you could see was the bottom half of the front wheels. I didn't build the car, but I traded a '56 Ford for it, because the guys wife refused to drive the Rambler.

It was really a sleeper. The guy had installed an Isky cam in it, did some headwork, added headers and two fours, and it ran through a four speed hydo stick transmission. With the stock 4:22 gears (I think that was the Rambler ratio) it would fly. A buddy of mine bought a brand new Plymouth Sport Fury 383, and was highly insulted when the Rambler beat him badly.

Right after that I lost my license (for drag racing,,,,,,,go figure) so I tore the Rambler down to make a gasser out of it, but never got it back together. I was 18, and didn't know what I was doing. But man, you should have seen the looks on the faces of the unsuspecting people I beat at redlights with this little blue rambler. The only thing that gave it away was the severe cam idle, but I think they thought it was just missing.

In one of my old hot rod magazines is an article on swapping a Chevy into a Rambler. I'll try to find it and post any info I can get from it.

Don

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 11:46:29 AM

Quote from: "donsrods"I agree with GPster......rust can be a B#@$%. .......In one of my old hot rod magazines is an article on swapping a Chevy into a Rambler. I'll try to find it and post any info I can get from it.

Don

Hey Don
Thanks for yet another great Rambler story, I've heard some good ones here. It's like Ramblers are the car the America Forgot, because everyone seems to have had one. That 53 sounds like it was a sweet little ride, manage to keep any pictures of it? (guessing not, being 43 years ago).

Yes, if you could dig up that article that'd be great to see.

I wouldn't be 100% overse to redoing the front end, I'd just reallly like not to have to re-design a whole new front suspension set up for it (swapping in disc spindles was about as far as I had wanted, but, lesson learned).

GPster · January 29, 2006, 12:33:36 PM

I was thinking Mustang II to get away from the clipping idea. My basic problem with the Mustang II idea is that unless you change You change the lower arms to the newer "A" style you will have to weld brackets for the strut arms on the uni-body/frame somewhere. Ideally, it would be nice to get a complete package (brakes,spindles, crossmember and steering) that you could fasten to the unibody. There was some information floating around here for using Jaguar front suspensions. Rooster may be able to point you to the sites. This way you'd get your front disc brakes. Two years old? I thought I was the only one to have projects take so long. Didn't this car come before her? GPster

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 01:05:46 PM

Quote from: "GPster"I was thinking Mustang II to get away from the clipping idea. My basic problem with the Mustang II idea is that unless you change You change the lower arms to the newer "A" style you will have to weld brackets for the strut arms on the uni-body/frame somewhere. Ideally, it would be nice to get a complete package (brakes,spindles, crossmember and steering) that you could fasten to the unibody. There was some information floating around here for using Jaguar front suspensions. Rooster may be able to point you to the sites. This way you'd get your front disc brakes. Two years old? I thought I was the only one to have projects take so long. Didn't this car come before her? GPster

Ie, one of those FatMan front units for 2 grand? Or something similar? That could work, but sounds pricey (still young and poor)

I'd like to look at the jag stuff though, at least those are hypothetically salvagable.

Yeah, I bought the Rambler a month before I found out a little Rowan was on her way. So far the kid is showing more improvement than the car. Runs faster too!

GPster · January 29, 2006, 05:34:04 PM

Quote from: "Gambler"Ie, one of those FatMan front units for 2 grand?

No, I was thinking a $350.00 crossmember and a lot of junkyard parts. I won't say much about Fat Man (maybe someone else here will) but what I was thinking was pull out the stock crossmember and install the new crossmember incorporating you frame repairs into the crossmember mounting. We used to have a Canadian certified welder that built these crossmembers on the side but that well dried up. It has been done using the stock Mustang II/Pinto crossmember but I would not reccomend that unless you have somebody closer than this WEB to help you. GPster

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 07:10:01 PM

Quote from: "GPster"
Quote from: "Gambler"Ie, one of those FatMan front units for 2 grand?
No, I was thinking a $350.00 crossmember and a lot of junkyard parts. I won't say much about Fat Man (maybe someone else here will) but what I was thinking was pull out the stock crossmember and install the new crossmember incorporating you frame repairs into the crossmember mounting. We used to have a Canadian certified welder that built these crossmembers on the side but that well dried up. It has been done using the stock Mustang II/Pinto crossmember but I would not reccomend that unless you have somebody closer than this WEB to help you. GPster

Yeah, I've heard plenty about those FM units, I asking to see if you meant a complete aftermarket package.

I guess what I can do is measure between the front rails and we can figure out what would fit in there, eh? The rotted part is just forward of the centerline of the suspension coming down, but I see how if you put in a cross member (found a front end the same width, cut out the ||----|| and massaged it in there, thats what you mean, correct?

donsrods · January 29, 2006, 07:32:57 PM

Gambler: No, I never took any pictures. For some reason I don't have any of many of the cars I had over the years. Guess I'm not a camera kind of person.

While I was over at my shop working on my '39 today, I did try to dig around and find that article for you, but since I have been collecting magazines from about 1953, the boxes are pretty full. I think I do remember the article being in one of the little books, though, so that narrows it down somewhat. I'll keep looking.

Speaking of little kids, my Son Don just told me today I'm going to be a Grandfather in Sept. First one. He married a girl with 2 kids, but this will be our first from them together. One more car nut to pass the torch to, if we have anything to do with it. I told my Son he better hurry up on that Capri drag car he's building, because things come to a screeching halt when the kids arrive................we've all been there.

Gambler · January 29, 2006, 08:10:01 PM

Quote from: "donsrods"Gambler: No, I never took any pictures. For some reason I don't have any of many of the cars I had over the years. Guess I'm not a camera kind of person.

While I was over at my shop working on my '39 today, I did try to dig around and find that article for you, but since I have been collecting magazines from about 1953, the boxes are pretty full. I think I do remember the article being in one of the little books, though, so that narrows it down somewhat. I'll keep looking.

Speaking of little kids, my Son Don just told me today I'm going to be a Grandfather in Sept. First one. He married a girl with 2 kids, but this will be our first from them together. One more car nut to pass the torch to, if we have anything to do with it. I told my Son he better hurry up on that Capri drag car he's building, because things come to a screeching halt when the kids arrive................we've all been there.

Well if it pops up that'd be some good info to have, keep an eye out for it. Searching leads to cleaning!

Congrats on the grankids! My projects didn't slow down too much further than they would have, I look at it as giving the wrenchmonkey time to grow up a little so she can supervise her pop

GPster · January 29, 2006, 10:42:39 PM

I started riding motorcycles in '84 (stopped abruptly in '93) and haven't spent a lot of time looking since everything went to front wheel drive. Don't have a lot of ideas what might be available. I tend to look away from things like the Chrysler product torsion bar set-ups because of steering box mounts (I think a rack makes a cleaner package) and mini-truck packages might tend to make the thing set high. Ramblers set new ground but the Mustang II kind of adds some familar territory. GPster

Gambler · January 30, 2006, 09:39:13 PM

Quote from: "GPster"I started riding motorcycles in '84 (stopped abruptly in '93) and haven't spent a lot of time looking since everything went to front wheel drive. Don't have a lot of ideas what might be available. I tend to look away from things like the Chrysler product torsion bar set-ups because of steering box mounts (I think a rack makes a cleaner package) and mini-truck packages might tend to make the thing set high. Ramblers set new ground but the Mustang II kind of adds some familar territory. GPster

well..I took a closer look today..cant believe I missed this before, but theres a hole a I can fit my fist into. I can't believe it took the weight of the front on it..although I guess most of it was supported by the fender well (solid steel). But the rail is TOAST. Heck, toast is prolly stronger.

Whatever I do, the drivers suspension has to come off, so wherever it's parked, it'll be there a while, while I figure out what can be done. There is a good local fabricator who I've been asking around about, I may give him a call. Guess I'll get it here, strip out the interior down the floorpans (or lack thereof) so everythings exposed and ready for a full metal hackjob.

GPster · January 31, 2006, 09:16:52 AM

[/quote]well..I took a closer look today..cant believe I missed this before, but theres a hole a I can fit my fist into. I can't believe it took the weight of the front on it..although I guess most of it was supported by the fender well (solid steel). Whatever I do, the drivers suspension has to come off, so wherever it's parked, it'll be there a while, while I figure out what can be done. There is a good local fabricator who I've been asking around about, I may give him a call. [/quote] Maybe now's the time to think about a "clip". If there's still wheels on it, measure from the center of one front wheel (at ground level) across to the center of the other front wheel (at ground level) . This will give you a tread width. Next measure accross the unibody frame rails at the firewall to see how far apart the rails are apart. Then measure from the firewall foreward to the center line of the front axel to see how much room you have to do this in (a walking 2 year old can be trained to hold the other end of a tape measure). Don't start cutting until you have something to put there because the inner fender panels can still locate the radiator and front sheetmetal and bumper. A whole frame seems like possible idea bearing in mind the rear suspension and closed driveshaft that you started with but to get the car to sit right on top of a frame would mean that the rails would probably only be 2" off the ground. I would go ahead and pull the carpet off and check the floor on the drivers side. If it's gone then it might be time to re-consider the direction of this project. GPster P.S. Get some picture so that we can see how bad it is. It is easy to get disgusted but athe weight of the car was supported by the upper coil spring pocket which was on that inner fender panel.

Gambler · February 01, 2006, 01:40:41 AM

Well, I grabbed some pics today. I'll put a link to them below, I don't alway have the best of luck hardlinking to them. The space between the rails is aprrox. 31.5 inches, and from the rail tip back to where it begins to bend is the same. I didn't get the tread width. But, as horrid as the rust hole looks, the top, bottom, and engine side of the drivers rail is actually solid. I would guess that I could simply (hah) remove the entire drivers side suspension, and have some C channel welded in. That would stiffen that rail up, without having to do an entire clip, or being uber precise with measurments and layout.

Basically, redrill/tap the mounting holes, and should be good to go. Since I wanted to swap in eagle disc spindles, and perhaps shorter coils (although I have no idea if that works with Rambler IFS..I know they can be airbagged, but those systems are expensive to me)

This would be a good option, because it could done here at the house (on a nice cement pad, not where the car is in the pics), there's plenty of oil field welders in the area, I could snag one, or get a car guy out here. Take a look, tell me what ya think.

I know with a chevy v8, the dizzy is in the rear, I was going to totally remove that heater core, if I need heat, put in a Mohave unit down the road.

http://fsjparts.greatestjournal.com/

Interesting note on the idea of frame swapping..I stumbled across a red and black 59 Wagon like mine in a field, it had been grafted onto a willys frame, complete with a GoDevil engine. Looks like the guy gave up when it came to hooking the steering up. Besides the wheelbase being a few inches off, it looked pretty mean (and pretty sunk into the ground), but it was a 4wd Jambler!

Obviously if I went with my idea, I'd had to strengthen up that fenderwall too, since its integral to the support. Just seems like the easiest and most cost effective way to go. Time is free.