351 Cleveland heads on 302 Winsor block?

[32 Chevy]

Just to show how little I actually know about Ford motors, I thought that the Cleveland and Winsor motors are completely different. So when yesterday someone asked why I don't put Cleveland heads on my 302 I hemmed and hawed and played dumb until I could....

Come here to climb the great font of RRT knowledge to ask the Great Automotive Gurus about the differences/ similarities of the two blocks. There is a dead 70 ranchero near here with a 351 Cleveland in it I could buy cheap, so what can I use from it?

Intake? Headers? Will the heads work on my 302? Same transmission bolt mounting? Etc.

Thanks again, as usual.

DaveR.

[mopar2dr]

Ford did this very thing when they created the Boss 302. It will require a special intake manifold. 351 Clevelands have two sets of heads,the 2v and the 4v,difference is in the intake and exhaust ports(real big on the 4v). If that Ranchero is a 2 barrel then you would be better off whith a set of 351 windsor heads. Of couse this too requires a special manifold,as the taller 351w heads make the valley wider.  My 351 Clevland Cobra Jet Mustang could pretty much pass everything except a gas station!

[kb426]

The 2v heads will have fair low end. The 4v heads will have no low end. The original Boss had 2.25 intakes. Some of the other clevelands had 2.19's. The smaller valves are better for all around use. I would only do this if I wanted something different. None of the older motors have the street performance of the small port 5.0 head motors.

[btrc]

I have a 351 (2V) Cleveland out of a '71 Cougar in my '37 Ford.  It has an Edelbrock intake on it with a 4V carb, Comp. cam, Unilite dist., and headers.  It's OK but if I was doing it over again I would go with a 5.0 HO engine.  There is just so much stuff available for these newer motors, especially the fuel injection.  
The headers are right off the Cougar and worked great, although I did have everything there when I built the car.  The bolt pattern is the same for all the small blocks, up to 351 at least.  There are different flexplates I guess for some applications.  I'm just getting ready to swap out my C-6 for an AOD.  I want to see if I can pass some of those gas stations mopar 2dr was talkng about.  I only get about 12 MPG highway right now.

[kb426]

I have the aod in my truck. I'd install a shift kit before installing the trans. Without it, the trans is a granny shifter. Wide open shifts are about 3800 rpm. I'm going to put in a transgo kit before summer.

[Phil55]

If you use the 351 Winsor heads, you can use the 302 intake.  However, you will have to use special headbolts and 351W intake gaskets.

[Pep]

Yeah, what most of the guys said...but, if you can get hold of some Aussie 302 Cleveland ( yes I do mean Cleveland ) heads, you will retain your compression ratio and have heads that breath better than any stock Windsor, including 351s. They have the same size valves and ports as the 351C  2Vs. You will have to get the Boss gasket. I see many gasket manufacturers now make the same gasket that fit stock Clevelands and Boss engines. Also the Boss manifold will need to be sourced. They were quite plentifull over here years ago. Locally made of course. I'm not certain, but I think you will also need the Cleveland push rods.

[32 Chevy]

This is all great info, guys, keep it coming...

So I think I will skip the Cleveland option and keep looking for a decent set of 351 Windsor heads. I have a line on a set from a '69 351 C.J. that have been setting on a shelf for years. So, can I use the same pushrods and valve train that is now operating my stock 302 or is a different valve train needed? And will the valve seats froma '69 motor need to to be changed to allow use of unleaded fuel? And what is a ballpark price that a set on unmodified 351 heads should sell for? Daggone I have lotsa questions!

TIA.

Dave

[48flatbed]

I have been running 69 model 351W heads on my 82 5.0 block for 16 years now.  The 69 heads have smaller ports and slightly bigger valves than other years.  They do not have hardened valve seats and should have hardened seats installed to stop valve recession (sp?).

Having said that I did not install the hardened seats.  I  added 'instead-o-lead' for the first 50,000 miles or so but quit after that.  I have 51,000 more miles since then (engine was rebuilt at approx. 41,000 showing about 142000 now) still working.  I have had 4 valve springs fail over the last year or so, could be recession allowing spring bind or maybe just age.

I used original 351 rockers as my late model pedastal rockers would not work.  New valve springs at rebuild.  Back then you could buy special steped washers allowing use of 302 head bolts.  I dont know if these are still available or not.

hope this helps

jon

[32 Chevy]

I have been running 69 model 351W heads on my 82 5.0 block for 16 years now.  The 69 heads have smaller ports and slightly bigger valves than other years.  They do not have hardened valve seats and should have hardened seats installed to stop valve recession (sp?).

Having said that I did not install the hardened seats.  I  added 'instead-o-lead' for the first 50,000 miles or so but quit after that.  I have 51,000 more miles since then (engine was rebuilt at approx. 41,000 showing about 142000 now) still working.  I have had 4 valve springs fail over the last year or so, could be recession allowing spring bind or maybe just age.

I used original 351 rockers as my late model pedastal rockers would not work.  New valve springs at rebuild.  Back then you could buy special steped washers allowing use of 302 head bolts.  I dont know if these are still available or not.

hope this helps

jon

Thanks for the info. So how do you like the 351 heads? You have had alots of miles with them so maybe you had a chance to compare your car's performance vs. 302 heads.

Thanks,
Dave

[48flatbed]

Thanks for the info. So how do you like the 351 heads? You have had alots of miles with them so maybe you had a chance to compare your car's performance vs. 302 heads.

Thanks,
Dave

This engine is in an 82 Mustang GT along with a toploader 4 speed and 9 inch ford rear end.   Story goes- hopped up engine, broke rearend (tiny 7.5 ring gear) replaced with 9 inch out of 70 cougar (oddly .25 inch narrower than 82 mustang), then SROD tranny breaks, replaced with toploader close ratio.  Life is good until I installed 8.5 x 26 ET-Drag slicks.

After slicks came new clutch, 11 inch set up out of Bronco to replace smaller stock item.  Then home fabricated lift bars, which twisted the unibody.  Then I took it to a frame shop to square it up then trailered it to my shop to install subframe connectors and 6 point cage.

Once again life is good.  Running mid to high 12s in the 1/4. Then we had kids and drag racing ended.

I never raced the original heads much so not much compareable data.  But they were open chamber heads (63 cc I think) and the 69 351W heads are small chamber (58 cc ).  With the increased compression you cant run low grade unleaded without some pinging.  Mid grade is ok.

Overall they are great in that they are mostly trouble free and do offer an increase in performance for very little effort or loot.

jon

[32 Chevy]

Thanks for the info. So how do you like the 351 heads? You have had alots of miles with them so maybe you had a chance to compare your car's performance vs. 302 heads.

Thanks,
Dave

This engine is in an 82 Mustang GT along with a toploader 4 speed and 9 inch ford rear end.   Story goes- hopped up engine, broke rearend (tiny 7.5 ring gear) replaced with 9 inch out of 70 cougar (oddly .25 inch narrower than 82 mustang), then SROD tranny breaks, replaced with toploader close ratio.  Life is good until I installed 8.5 x 26 ET-Drag slicks.

After slicks came new clutch, 11 inch set up out of Bronco to replace smaller stock item.  Then home fabricated lift bars, which twisted the unibody.  Then I took it to a frame shop to square it up then trailered it to my shop to install subframe connectors and 6 point cage.

Once again life is good.  Running mid to high 12s in the 1/4. Then we had kids and drag racing ended.

I never raced the original heads much so not much compareable data.  But they were open chamber heads (63 cc I think) and the 69 351W heads are small chamber (58 cc ).  With the increased compression you cant run low grade unleaded without some pinging.  Mid grade is ok.

Overall they are great in that they are mostly trouble free and do offer an increase in performance for very little effort or loot.

jon

What valve train and other modifications have to be done to mount 351 W heads on a 302? I think that the head bolts need to be changed becsuse of differing diameters, but what about pushrod length and rocker geometry. TRhe same exhaust manifolds should work, but how about my 302 intake manifold?

Thanks, again...

Dave

[48flatbed]

What valve train and other modifications have to be done to mount 351 W heads on a 302? I think that the head bolts need to be changed becsuse of differing diameters, but what about pushrod length and rocker geometry. TRhe same exhaust manifolds should work, but how about my 302 intake manifold?

Thanks, again...

Dave

Dave
I ran stock valvetrain for a 351W.  Pushrod length is the same but you need ones for a stud type of rocker  302 or 351.  The pushrods run through a close tolerance slot in the head to keep the rockers in line and for this reason are harder steel than pedastal rocker pushrods which run through a large round hole in the head, with the pedastal keeping the alignment.

The rocker geometry is the same for both engines 1.54 to 1 ratio rockers.  You can go to a 1.6 to 1 rocker with no mods.

The intake manifold will work fine.  You do need to use 351 manifold gaskets because the port size is larger.  I ran a performer 302 manifold with the ports enlarged and matched to the gasket then blended about 1 inch into the port.

Exhaust headers or manifolds for a 302 will work fine with 351 heads.  You can gain alot of exhaust flow by removing the thermactor (sp?) port.
This is a large blob hanging in the middle of the exhaust port.  It can be completly ground away with a die grinder- I left a small bump where it was just to be sure I didn't get into the water passages.

jon

[32 Chevy]

What valve train and other modifications have to be done to mount 351 W heads on a 302? I think that the head bolts need to be changed becsuse of differing diameters, but what about pushrod length and rocker geometry. TRhe same exhaust manifolds should work, but how about my 302 intake manifold?

Thanks, again...

Dave

Dave
I ran stock valvetrain for a 351W.  Pushrod length is the same but you need ones for a stud type of rocker  302 or 351.  The pushrods run through a close tolerance slot in the head to keep the rockers in line and for this reason are harder steel than pedastal rocker pushrods which run through a large round hole in the head, with the pedastal keeping the alignment.

The rocker geometry is the same for both engines 1.54 to 1 ratio rockers.  You can go to a 1.6 to 1 rocker with no mods.

The intake manifold will work fine.  You do need to use 351 manifold gaskets because the port size is larger.  I ran a performer 302 manifold with the ports enlarged and matched to the gasket then blended about 1 inch into the port.

Exhaust headers or manifolds for a 302 will work fine with 351 heads.  You can gain alot of exhaust flow by removing the thermactor (sp?) port.
This is a large blob hanging in the middle of the exhaust port.  It can be completly ground away with a die grinder- I left a small bump where it was just to be sure I didn't get into the water passages.

jon

Jon,

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for. And now one last request; Do you know the valve diameters of a 351 head from a 75 LTD? The casting numbers on the head I'm looking at is D5AE but as I can't inspect the heads personally before committing to them would like to get an idea of the compression and valve sizes. I have been googling for 2 days and cant find that information...

Thanks one more time, I owe you a six pack now...

Dave R

[48flatbed]

Jon,

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for. And now one last request; Do you know the valve diameters of a 351 head from a 75 LTD? The casting numbers on the head I'm looking at is D5AE but as I can't inspect the heads personally before committing to them would like to get an idea of the compression and valve sizes. I have been googling for 2 days and cant find that information...

Thanks one more time, I owe you a six pack now...

Dave R

Dave

The info I have says the valve sizes for 351W from 69-76 would be 1.84 intake and 1.54 exhaust. The basic 302(and non hi-po 289) sizes were 1.78 intake and 1.45 exhaust.

The combustion chamber sizes vary depending on year.  For 289/302 and 351W heads from 69 to 76 the size is listed as 58cc (approx. 61 with the head gasket). The chamber sizes get as high as 68 cc in some late 80's heads.

The chamber size information is good for comparison, but the sizes vary depending on the source of your information.  This may be due to some sources adding the gasket volume also.  

jon