Electric vehicles

phat46 · July 12, 2021, 05:00:38 PM

I have had an interest in EVs for quite a while, love 'em or hate'em, the future is electric, they aren't going away. This past week I was at my daughter and son in laws. They purchased a Mustang Mach e about a month ago. I was very impressed by the car and its technology. It looks good, the build quality is good and it functions well. It is, of course, quiet, even road noise is negligible and there are no rattles or squeaks. Performance wise it is pretty impressive, 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, not bad for a car that's not meant to be any type of a performance vehicle, it's a four door SUV grocery getter. It can be driven with one pedal, the regen braking will bring the car to a stop pretty much like applying the brakes, just takes a little practice to know when to let off the accelerator. The technology in the car is remarkable, at least to an old guy like me. They can start the car with their phones, from anywhere there is cell service, in the World, they had an outlet installed in their garage to plug the car into at night and the car can monitor their service to charge at the best times. The car alerted us to a problem on the expressway we were on and routed us around it before we had any idea there was a problem. Honestly, after a short time you forget you are in anything other than a regular car...till someone driving next to you starts taking pictures!

kb426 · July 12, 2021, 07:00:14 PM

You are correct in your sentiments. I don't think the changeover will be as rapid as people were expecting, though. There are lots of issues to be tackled before wide spread use will happen anywhere besides city use.

idrivejunk · July 17, 2021, 11:20:01 AM

Its kind of neat that EVs are developed to mock gas junk so closely and that they outgun engine power. If range is the hurdle, seems to me stripping away all luxuries then dedicating all power to only wheels would be a start. EVs are where cars started and it could just as easily have turned out that electric was what caught on. Had it done so, the shoe might be on the other foot and a transition to fossil fuel could be the now. With electric having run it's course.

I am a believer in smaller, less gas dependant communities and think travel as it is now percieved is overly luxurious and distance is not given enough consideration. People think nothing of hauling trailerloads of cars several states away and cheap but incredible transportation is taken for granted. All that hop in and go anywhere affordably is a gigantic privelidge, not a right. All the infrastructure supporting it gives folks the idea its right. Technology has a sweet spot to it which in automobiles has long since passed. Same with population, theres a sweet spot in family and community size that is ignored and ridiculously lavish levels of convenience are the norm.

With electric vehicles and limited range, community sizes may have evolved closer to the sweet spot. But theres so many folks still locked into post WW2 car mentality that numbers will continue pushing higher and higher like thats the goal. Worldwide. Until limits are found and the push is collectively regretted. At that point, spartan electric vehicles and downsized families and communities might begin to make sense to more folks. As it is now, with little local buying and getting everything shipped from far away, the sweet spot is being completely ignored if not stomped on and nobody is really happy.

What I came to say was thats neat, that an EV can mock the way a GV behaves so closely. Hooray for those involved in development. But had it played out the other way around, what things would be done to make new gas vehicles behave like old electrics? Hmm.

Rethinking the automobile and starting over with a spartan electric might find the right path to take. But buyers simply will not accept a reduction in luxurious excess. Just my ,02. Glad you got to try one out, thanks for the report, and glad you liked it. The changeover won't succeed if pushed. It has to be pulled by a common want.

Crosley.In.AZ · July 17, 2021, 03:47:17 PM

THe needed electrical infrastructure is a far away dream for large EV use. Several large cities can barely keep their lights on during high demand electric use now. Of course the tree huggers say that EV charging happens at night when less demand on the electric grid happens

The battery in EV are filthy nasty to manufacture and dispose of. The reason most of these battery are manufactured in 2nd and 3rd world countries is because of regulations. Not many ppl want to discuss the filthy batteries used in EV production.

I view the battery situation in EV the same as nuclear power plants. We have a mess to deal with the spent worn out material. So far the methods used are very poor and dangerous in some cases. With the nuclear waste material way more dangerous.

As I have read: Tesla has about 25k charging stations in place. Many along super highways to offer long distance travel. 25k seems like a large number in charging locations, but it is not. Its a beginning. Apparently adapters are needed to charge some non Tesla EV cars on the Tesla chargers. I thought a common universal plug in charge design was agreed to years ago?

Which as this reminds me: I need to visit Wally World for a 51R lead acid battery for the Honda Civic car we have. Its 3 yrs old. Batterys dont last long in the Arizona heat. Likey this one has lasted 3 yrs because the car spent most of 2020 in the home garage with only moderate use because of the Wuhan Chinese Flu pandemic. Which brings up another item: lead acid batterys are highly recycled. Maybe we can figure that crap out with the lithium type batterys in EV stuff.

:!:

phat46 · July 18, 2021, 03:27:22 PM

I look at EV's as being in their infancy, much like a Model T. These are really the first generation of practical electric vehicles. There was also no infrastructure for ICE vehicles when they were first introduced, no gas stations, refineries, pipelines,etc. There was also no decent road system, those problems, and more, were addressed, fixed, and brought us into the modern era we enjoy now. the electric grid has needed updating for decades, much as the non existent road system at the turn of the 20th Century, as we all have seen. Hopefully the push for EV's with help make that a priority, for more reasons than just EV's. I believe the lithium mining situation will be addressed by auto manufacturers to at least appear to be environmentally responsible in the eyes of the public. The disposal problem is already being addressed, recycling technology and plants are becoming reality, they have to. The battery packs are also being recycled into stationary power storage. Like it or not, the future IS electric, ICE technology is archaic, even in it best newest, most efficient form. Some of us will go kicking and screaming into the future but we will not stop it.

enjenjo · July 18, 2021, 09:56:11 PM

Take a look at this https://www.powermag.com/zinc-ion-batteries-are-a-scalable-alternative-to-lithium-ion/

Crosley.In.AZ · July 18, 2021, 10:44:19 PM

I will not be around for the EV market growth people think is coming. Battery tech is improving and dealing with the spent EV batterys is improving too. Some folks with RV are retro fitting retired EV battery packs to RV use. I've read the Leaf battery is popular in some RV circles

Out here in Aridzona there is large growth in Solar use. Which requires battery power. Neighbor just had solar panels installed with that Tesla wall of cells. Out where we live now the solar panels up on roofs is a higher percentage than I knew.

I'd be more interested in Solar panels for daily house use than battery power in cars.

Mikej · September 10, 2021, 11:35:44 AM

I had a 2013 volt. The gas engine made it usable. The battery in the the winter and in the hills was less the 50% of the miles in the summer. 4 hour charge time for 38 miles with the 220 volt charger. 11 hrs with a 110 volt charger. Granted the new cars are better but what they claim on mileage and charge time may not be what they seem. For those of us who drive long distant, we might not be happy with the time it may take. If you don't drive them like they are a baby, your range will be cut surprisingly short. I sold the Volt right at 100,000 miles. Batteries were starting to degrade. Also dangerous on ice. Let off the throttle and it go into regen. Front tires lock up get like slamming on the breaks. We had it 7 years. Went back to gas.

phat46 · September 10, 2021, 08:42:56 PM

2013, that is a long time ago in the electric car game. Like I said, these things are in their infancy, eight years ago EV were a novelty, now they are becoming mainstream. Every manufacturer is in the game, they have to be or they will be left behind. I can only imagine where they will be eigjt years from now!

Crosley.In.AZ · September 11, 2021, 09:03:23 AM

I had a conversation with a co worker many years ago on the Chevy Volt.. My view was the powertrain did not make too much sense with limited mileage on electric and then gas engine driving a generator to power the drive wheels. Some where GM changed that so the gas engine would power the wheels more directly ? I could be wrong. He had looked at the Volt before he bought his Camry.

My co worker had a Camry Hybrid at the time. Bought new. 2014 ? Of course he loved it, would slice bread, cook dinner, do everything.. Years later when the car was over 100k miles it was traded off for a new non hybrid Camry.

About a month ago we were in Holbrook AZ. Eating lunch at a Burger King that was just north of the I-40 freeway. This Burger King has Tesla charger stations in the parking lot. I watched 6 Tesla cars roll in and plug in during our 45 minutes there. Most of the drivers sat in their car as the charging happened.

enjenjo · September 11, 2021, 07:24:32 PM

I kind of feel that if a manufacturer comes up with a quick change battery pack that might make electric really take off. The only problem I see with that is that a third party just about has to own the batteries so there is no problem doing an exchange.

phat46 · September 11, 2021, 09:42:30 PM

Quote from: enjenjo on September 11, 2021, 07:24:32 PM
I kind of feel that if a manufacturer comes up with a quick change battery pack that might make electric really take off. The only problem I see with that is that a third party just about has to own the batteries so there is no problem doing an exchange.

Frank, that's the same thing I have thought. Drive up, drop out a battery pack from under car, install the new one snd drive away. Might be done in ten minutes or so. Most EV can charge to 85% in about 45 minutes now. Time for a lunch if you're on a trip. My wife and I usually stop for at least that ling on long trips.

jaybee · September 11, 2021, 10:00:33 PM

As phat46 said, truly viable EVs are in their infancy. The state of the art is hurtling forward, however, in the same way internal combustion engine technology exploded from 1915 to 1935 and again from 1950 to 1970. Ten years ago I doubted an EV I'd want to drive would be made before I am quite old. Now I would absolutely consider it.

I'm no fan of Elon Musk, but he made it happen. Tesla built the first really viable electric drivetrain thanks to superior batteries and battery management. They have both the speed and the range to be an everyday car. Within a few years other manufacturers will catch up on that stuff and the victory will go to whoever makes the best CAR, and the established manufacturers will win that race.

Enjenjo, thanks for the info on zinc-ion batteries. While people are developing good technologies for recycling lithium ion batteries we really need another option. Sodium glass batteries represent another potential quantum leap in the technology. They're made of stuff that's really cheap and plentiful, and not nearly as toxic as lithium. The problem they're working on now is that as the electrodes swell and shrink microscopically with charge state they break the glass electrolyte. Multiple teams are developing electrodes that are sufficiently compressible to prevent breakage.

I'm positive we can mostly electrify the economy while using very little fossil fuel and without taking 50 years to do it. Iowa will soon get 60% of its electricity from wind power alone. There's very little solar there but that's because net metering rules are very unhelpful, thanks to lobbying by electric industries. With high tension lines as longstanding infrastructure, how often is it both dark and calm everywhere within, say, a 500 mile radius? Not very often. Add utility-scale battery storage and I'll bet there won't be a lot of need for gas or coal generation. A distributed grid with a lot of rooftop solar and regional or municipal wind power could go a long way toward easing problems like rolling blackouts in fire season or large scale grid destruction like we currently see in Louisiana.

To state the obvious, I'm bullish on the future of electrification and decarbonization.

Crosley.In.AZ · September 12, 2021, 08:20:20 AM

My random thoughts on electricity production has been different from some;

Out here in AZ solar roof top stuff on homes work well. There has been HUGE arguments both verbal . legal by the 2 largest power producers here. Arguments over solar electric produced and returned to the grid from homes, the rights to that power, who pays or receives credit for that power... yada , yada.

There have been problems with home owners sign up for a lease situation with solar roof panels... then the home owner sells the house years later with solar lease still active. I do Not know how that has been worked out. The new house owner must get tagged for something on the solar panels with a lease?

But; my thought is if we go down the path of larger volume of electric cars. We need more power production. I think taking the load off the grid some what with solar power on houses and biznesses will be part of the the answer. Reduce the need for electric on the grid from daily use and direct it towards charging cars? Evey body talks about charging cars at night with lower demand on the grid.. out here it only drops to the mid 90s in the summer time. Spring and fall times it is warm here too. The grid still has a good amount of demand on it at night here.

jaybee · September 12, 2021, 09:07:37 AM

It's a factor, Tony. Transitioning to electric cars may require as much as 25% more electricity. If that additional electricity comes from coal or gas it hasn't fixed anything. All it's done is move carbon consumption from our gas tanks to some place where we don't see it as often and don't have to think about it as much.

One of the strange facts we don't commonly think of is that ten percent of the carbon we use is consumed in finding, mining, refining, and transporting fossil fuels. That's more than a drop in the bucket.