Jeepster hitting but not running

[wayne petty]

Wayne, this makes more sense now than it did at 3:30 EST.

I unfortunately was fooled by statements that it was easy to make computor controled engines start in a junk car and that fact that it started and ran gave me a false sense of accomplishment. My wife will attest to the fact that I'm over-whelmed and sometimes I can't even venture out a little sense of accomplishment. GPster

the trick is to get Several copies of the wiring diagrams BEFORE CHOPPING away unneeded circuits.. identify everything  and decide do i need that...

follow each circuit with dots and dashes of colored markers over the wiring you want to keep..  then you actually learn what is on each circuit..

it it the way i do it.. and i got that crazy italian bull to work on every circuit.

http://i.imgur.com/zg85jzU.jpg  worst part was trying to translate the wiring colors on the wrong year diagram into something understandable
V is actually green. B is white,. N is black,  R is pink.

do you have a FEDEX copy store near you...  i can send files to them and you can print it at your end. http://www.fedex.com/us/office/printandgo/Print%20and%20Go%20Flyer.pdf

[GPster]

do you have a FEDEX copy store near you...  i can send files to them and you can print it at your end. http://www.fedex.com/us/office/printandgo/Print%20and%20Go%20Flyer.pdf[/quote]



Wayne, this is GPster's wife responding to your message about sending copies.  We do not have FedEx near us, but we do have a UPS store.  If you send the files to upsblueprints@att.net, Joe can go pick up the prints.

If you decide to use this, let him know and in your email, indicate his name (Joe veraldo), the paper size (11x17) and the # of copies of each page (1).  Thanks for your help on this.

[GPster]

the trick is to get Several copies of the wiring diagrams BEFORE CHOPPING away unneeded circuits.. identify everything  and decide do i need that... follow each circuit with dots and dashes of colored markers over the wiring you want to keep..  then you actually learn what is on each circuit..
it it the way i do it..  worst part was trying to translate the wiring colors on the wrong year diagram into something understandable
V is actually green. B is white,. N is black,  R is pink.

I originally got my wiring diagrams from E Auto Repair. I printed them and inlarged them, copied them and whited out what I didnt think I needed, copied the whited out versions so that I could work from slimplified inlargements. I still have all those copies and when I go back to the originals I get overwhelmed by the complicates. That one little diagram you posted was what I had hoped to come up with. Leaving the other necessities for a functional vehicle and trying to use as much of the original vehicle (S15) as possible plus fooling myself into thinking I understood what I needed puts me where I seem to be. Today should be a injector "O" ring and distributor module day. GPster

[wayne petty]

sounds like you may have it handled... i just came back from a friends house to find my entire computer knocked off the table.. now it won't restart... i think the cat did it looking for a flat place to lay down. so i am typing on a G4 ibook till i can get another newer mac up and running..

the pages i noted will reallly assist you in trouble shooting..

[GPster]

Well I'd like to prove I'm getting closer but the fact remains that it used to run on a prime but now nothing . It doesn't even hit. I had bought a new module after a check showed the old one was bad. A re-check showed that it was good so now I have two that are both good and the Hall Effect swich checked good.I dug out the Ignition System Check from that GM service book that Wayne pointed me to and did my best at following the directions. Got clear to the bottom of the page by getting all the No and it's predicting that the coil is bad.Got a new coil today because I figured my chances of getting a good new one might be better than betting on a used 25 year old part. If anybody has some hint that are not covered in a factory service check I'd listen to them quick because after I take the coil out of the box it's mine. GPster

[GPster]

Well ot still doesn't hit. All the tests pointed to the coil and when I got the old coil out I thought that was it . The incased winding were loose on the steel where the new coil was all bonded together like you'd expect so I felt I had it . Wouldn't hit a lick even on a prime. So back to the drawing bored.  First check before tomarrow and yes, there is power with the key on.  another day, another day. GPster

[GPster]

Well I'm writting in my diary. I've been talking to myself for days. Still nothing with a new coil. I did the Ignition System Check that Wayne had pointed me to but I had some questions about it as I did it. I went back and read the Test Discription looking for clarification and I made sure everything I read was for the 2.5L engine with the remote coil. Part of the problem comes about because they changed the external wiring to the distributor in the years covered by the manual. That and the drawing of the module and it's terminals is upside down from the way the module is mounted in the distributor.  The third check is for  the wiring from the coil to the distributor and the system check is for voltage to vevify the condition of that harness. There are only two wires in that harness and it is connection to the module so the only plug on that harness is at the bottom of the coil. That's fine except the ignition circuit connects to the coil and the is jumped from the coil to the distributor by one of the two wires in that harness, So when you unplug the harness from the coil (at it's only plug) and check the wires in the harness for battery voltage you get nothing because there's none there. You can wonder if power is supposed to come to the module from the ECM   but in step two they told you to unplug the four wire plug from the distributor to the ECM. When that test didn't prove anything. They never mentioned to plug that harness back in. So I did the test in every possible way I could imagine and then I checked the continuity of the two wires in the other harness with it unhooked from the module. No open circuits and no shorts the best I can test. In all my reading differant people have given hints about how to work on this distributor in these trucks. The distributor is on the passenger side of the engine  above the starter and underneath the intake manifold. The prime suggestion is to remove the passenger side front tire and the rubber shield on the bottom of the inner fender then raise the vehicle so that the distributor is at eye level. The fender is off the Jeepster and there is no inner fender. The engine is set-back in the frame so that the distributor is behind the top "A" frame but in front of the firewall. There's not much of anything it the way. I only have vision in one eye so no depth perseption and when the pictures are upside down I get confused. One of the manuals I have read goes into telling how to remove the distributor to replace thr pick-up coil. That's about the only component that I haven't  mis-checked and replaced. My understanding is that it is for information to the ECM and that this thing should at least spark on crank even with the ECM disconnected. Maybe that's next so I can at least get the distributor in      bi-focal range. Hope you enjoy the reading. GPster

[wayne petty]

testing the coil with a ohm meter..

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/ignition_coil_sheets/wells/W03.pdf

minimum primary resistance, meter set to 200 ohm.  0.2 to 0.7 ohms is expected.

minimum secondary resistance.. meter set to 200K ohms.   6.0K to 15.0K

duralast or wells coil connectors.. 243 and 244..


---------------

ignition module..

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/DR134B.PDF

___________

magnetic pickup coil   680 to 980 ohms..  with meter set at 2K ohms.

if you switch meter to 2 volt AC scale.. you should see just over 1.0 volts when you spin the shaft..

~~~~~~~~~~~

if your model has a hall effect on the top..

http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/DR147A.pdf

[GPster]

testing the coil with a ohm meter..
http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/ignition_coil_sheets/wells/W03.pdf
minimum primary resistance, meter set to 200 ohm.  0.2 to 0.7 ohms is expected.
minimum secondary resistance.. meter set to 200K ohms.   6.0K to 15.0K
duralast or wells coil connectors.. 243 and 244..
---------------
ignition module..
http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/DR134B.PDF
___________
magnetic pickup coil   680 to 980 ohms..  with meter set at 2K ohms.
if you switch meter to 2 volt AC scale.. you should see just over 1.0 volts when you spin the shaft..
~~~~~~~~~~~
if your model has a hall effect on the top..
http://www.wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/DR147A.pdf

Thankx, I'll add those pictures and your instructions to my file. Rethinking my actions, when I wasn't getting any test light action at the injector wires my first change was the module because S10 forum put it as the first problem (and a faulty test at Advance pointed to it). All of my tries after that were without prime because my concern was looking for a squirt from the injector. All of my tries with wiring to the ECM were probably without prime until Crosley's suggestion had me cleaning the injector and proving flow (and leaks). Then hoping for it to at least "HIT" put me on this distributor fix. So I may have lost the distributor when I put in the new module. My distributor does have the Halls Effect switch and it was removed and checked using Haynes' method. That has given me at least two times in this distrbutor before I discovered a problem with it and numerous tries since. One person on the S10 Forum had a problem at the Halls Effect switch and traced it to the connector to it. There seems to be four spade terminals on the switch but only three are in use. But there are four wires with wires to one terminal being for two. One of his wires was loose but there certainly is no way of telling this with the distributor in place. There are also at least six wires on the two connectors on the module with the same type of visability. I plan to pull the distributor when I can concentrate on that job so I can have it where I can examine it. With a new coil and 12 volts there can't be any other places to look. My concentration on this latest memo has probably shot my concentration for this project for today. GPster

[GPster]

Well, I hope boredom with my posts doesn't keep anyone from reading this. Same subject, different problem. The distributor in this engine (2.5L "Iron Duke four cylinder) doesn't appear to have been disturbed since it's begining ('87). It is stuck in place, won't even turn. I removed the starter which is directly under it and before I try a pipe wrench in despiration I wonder if there are any old time tricks to get it loose. I have thought of a heat lamp or maybe something like a hair dryer trained on the site to soak it with heat for a while might help. But because a heat lamp can't really concentrate the heat in that direct a place and I'd rather not distroy the internals of the distributor (of course the whole reason for this is to see if the internals of the distributor are messed up)> Any suggestions (about ths problem). GPster

[58 Yeoman]

Joe, I look for your posts every day, hoping that one of these will say that you've got your engine running. If I were closer, I come and help, but I think that I know less about your engine than you do.

I think that I would spray some PB Blaster or something like that and let it sit for a while to see if it would soak in, then try turning the dist. back and forth a bit.

[rooster]

remove plugs in case of cyc's full of fuel

[rooster]

Well, I hope boredom with my posts doesn't keep anyone from reading this. Same subject, different problem. The distributor in this engine (2.5L "Iron Duke four cylinder) doesn't appear to have been disturbed since it's begining ('87). It is stuck in place, won't even turn. I removed the starter which is directly under it and before I try a pipe wrench in despiration I wonder if there are any old time tricks to get it loose. I have thought of a heat lamp or maybe something like a hair dryer trained on the site to soak it with heat for a while might help. But because a heat lamp can't really concentrate the heat in that direct a place and I'd rather not distroy the internals of the distributor (of course the whole reason for this is to see if the internals of the distributor are messed up)> Any suggestions (about ths problem). GPster

book says lift and tilt to remove after holddown removed

[wayne petty]

there are flats on the distributor body just below the wide area for a wrench... the distributor housing is only 3/4 of an inch into the block with a Oring on it. to probably seal the pressurized oil passage that may run directly below it..

i know on the 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, motors.. if you turn the distributor or oil pump drive assembly.  you better take it out and put a new oring on it.. or you take a chance of a major oil leak.. i have not looked at the oil routing of a 2.5 in a long time.

by the way... if you run a ground connection from the distributor to the engine block.. key on.. you might be able to turn the shaft if you push up on the spring loaded shaft/gear without destroying the shutter and hall effect at the top to see if the coil triggers and the injectors pulse..

would you like more info on distributor hall effect testing that probably is not covered in the 88 pickup manual.. application says that same distributor was used from 85 to 91 on 2.5 S10 motors and several other GM models with 2.5s in the early thru mid 80s in other gm models with 2.5 motors..

in the 1988 book..

hall effect testing is in section 6-8 digital page 206

the 2.5 ignition system test is on page 6-4 and 6-5... digital page 202 and 203..

say... does the distributor actually turn while cranking.. perhaps the plastic toothed cam sprocket failed.. or the roll pin in the distributor sheared..

[GPster]

Well, flats on the distributor's housing for a wench hold is a great idea. I may see about putting some on mine before I put it back in. The distributor in my engine must have been "out sourced". Nothing there. Wayne's description of the distributor's base as only being into the engine about 3/4" with an "O" ring grove gave me some courage so out came out the big tools. I broke it loose from it's hold with a plumber's faucet wrench but I couldn'y get much of a hold on it so I went to a 12" pipe wrench . That did fine and it was losening up but I couldn't get much movement because the wrench's handle kept hitting the frame. It did get it loose enough that I could work it with an 8' pipe wrench and that got it out. So now it's sitting in my vise and I started on my first examination. First guess would be that I created my own problem . When I changed the ignition module the first time I probably got the replacement in there with some of the conyacts not in place. That being so evevry time I've checked the wiring an swaped the module since I've just  put it back together the same way. The trouble that I had finding contacts for the various GMC tests and having to pull the recepticals back to get contact with the terminals with my test equipment complicated things further. That's what the first examination has me thinking but I will check iy further when I get off my own case and get a new "O" ring to put it back in. More layer. GPster