How much spark strengthe is needed for Alky?

kb426 · December 08, 2015, 12:38:50 PM

I would recommend you not consider the Vertex. As far as starting, my engines fired almost after the first revolution. Most gear drive starters have adequate cranking rpm to energize the mag's generator.

Beck · December 08, 2015, 09:42:40 PM

I found something else that may work for my ignition. It is actually designed for distributorless ignition.

MSD DIS-2 or DIS-4. The DIS-2 is designed for 4 cyl motors. The DIS-4 can run 4, 6 or 8 cyl motors.

There is a special DIS-2 designed for 4 cyl midget racers. There are 2 DIS-4 units on e-bay now that are cheap so far.

MY QUESTION: What is a DIS trigger. The MSD manual for these systems says, "The MSD Digital DIS Ignition will accept trigger inputs from electronic DIS type ignition systems." At another spot is says it accepts signals from the factory amplifier.

I am picturing a pickup like I was planning. 1 rib on the balancer - triggering 2 Ford pickups - feeding 2 GM HEI modules - these to the MSD DIS-4

??

kb426 · December 08, 2015, 10:00:33 PM

Beck, I read through the instructions for the dis system. It shows an ecu being the trigger source. It appears to be an upgrade for a factory efi ignition system. Am I missing some info about this?

Beck · December 08, 2015, 10:42:14 PM

Quote from: "kb426"Beck, I read through the instructions for the dis system. It shows an ecu being the trigger source. It appears to be an upgrade for a factory efi ignition system. Am I missing some info about this?

No you probably have it right. I always try to make things too simple. I couldn't figure out what triggered it.
What throws me off is the unit designed for midget racers. They don't have an ecu.

Beck · December 08, 2015, 10:45:24 PM

The msd unit for the midgets is 6214. It's descriptor states, "The Programmable Midget Ignition is a complete electronic distributorless system consisting of a powerful capacitive discharge Ignition Control, a four tower high output coil pack and uses two non-magnetic pick-ups with a trigger wheel as a crank trigger source."

It probably had different internals for that trigger mechanism.

Glen · December 08, 2015, 11:43:05 PM

I don't know if It will work but I don't see the power grid mentioned above.

I run it with the 7720 box for 220 Millijoules and the red HVC II coil part nuber 8261.

Beck · December 09, 2015, 09:17:08 AM

Quote from: "Glen"I don't know if It will work but I don't see the power grid mentioned above.

I run it with the 7720 box for 220 Millijoules and the red HVC II coil part nuber 8261.

This needs to run through a distributor, right?
That is what I am trying to eliminate.
A distributor will not clear my intake.

MSD 7720 ------- $400
MSD 7730 ------- $360
MSD 8261 ------- $180
Total ------------- $940

"Speed costs $$$. How fast you want to go?"

Glen · December 09, 2015, 10:15:47 AM

Sorry i.missed that

kb426 · December 09, 2015, 08:11:27 PM

Beck, I looked at pics of the engine as produced. The distributor is the same as a 4 cyl. chevy. Are you not able to use the original location?

Beck · December 09, 2015, 10:31:49 PM

Quote from: "kb426"Beck, I looked at pics of the engine as produced. The distributor is the same as a 4 cyl. chevy. Are you not able to use the original location?

I had to double check. I put the dizzy in a bare block and put my head and intake on it. The intake clears the dizzy and the cap, but the plug boots do NOT clear the #1 intake tube. I need 1/2".

Even if it all fit. I don't think I would trust the ignition system for blown alcohol. I have a distributor converted to HEI, but even that won't be good enough. It has the little cap (Vega). If I was making enough spark it would arc in the cap.

Beck · December 09, 2015, 10:36:20 PM

Close but no cigar.

chimp koose · December 09, 2015, 11:18:31 PM

Why not run the bare dizzy w/o cap or rotor and use it as just a trigger for the distributorless system

Beck · December 10, 2015, 08:44:14 AM

Quote from: "chimp koose"Why not run the bare dizzy w/o cap or rotor and use it as just a trigger for the distributorless system

My understanding of the distributorless systems is not very good.
I have looked at 2 MSD systems. DIS-2 / DIS-4 Plus and the 6214 Midget Racing. The DIS systems want a DIS input.I don't know what kind of a signal that is, other than it comes from the ECU. The 6214 wants a non magnetic input (flying magnet). The only thing I know to put in the distributor is a magnetic pickup coil. That signal is not compatable??

chimp koose · December 10, 2015, 11:13:12 AM

what if you press fit an aluminum plate onto the distributor shaft with 4 equally spaced magnets on it . you could then put the non magnetic pickup on the distributor body to get the signal . You would still need to program the ignition curve , unless you could mount the pickup to the advance mechanism in the distributor body.

Beck · December 10, 2015, 01:56:09 PM

Quote from: "chimp koose"what if you press fit an aluminum plate onto the distributor shaft with 4 equally spaced magnets on it . you could then put the non magnetic pickup on the distributor body to get the signal . You would still need to program the ignition curve , unless you could mount the pickup to the advance mechanism in the distributor body.

There is a MAJOR 2nd benefit from NO distributor at all. I cannot get a billet roller cam made with the distributor drive gear on it. I MUST remove the distributor to swap to a roller cam. Since the distributor drives the oil pump it also requires and external oil pump.

That is a good idea! Your suggestion is just a little off. There needs to be just one magnet on the distributor shaft plate and 2 non magnetic pickup coils on the body.

That takes the flying magnet off of the balancer. Initially the pickups would need to be checked to make sure they were in sync. The pickups would move together when the distributor body is rotated. The only problem I see is with the small diameter plate for the magnet some accuracy may be lost.

This still requires external electronics. I still like the MSD 6214 for this setup for a mechanical injection. It could also feed a Megasquirt efi.

This same idea would work for some of the other controllers. I could mount a small 60-2 wheel for the plate and use the appropriate pickups. This would work with the Electromotive TECs I've been researching.