Just curious - choosing an LSR car

[1800guy]

I just wondered how different folks go about deciding on a race car candidate.  Favorite brand of car, car you already own, engine you already own or are familiar with, etc?  I'm guessing there are about as many reasons as there are cars.

[wayne petty]

picking up a copy of the rule book is probably the first thing..

nosing thru it.. to find out what is possible and whats NOT..

there was some talk of using a few season old nascar CUP cars.. or NOS cars that were not raced..   i don't know if they are being sold to the lower classes..

as they are very safe at high speeds.. and designed to go fast..  designed to protect the driver in 200+ mph crashes.

i don't know if 4130 tubing is spec in LSR cars..

if you are planning on building your own.. out of 4130 tubing..

please contact gord over at THEMONTE. which is a heat treating newsletter.

he might be able to find you a heat treater who can put your entire finished chassis/cage into their 1100F controlled ovens to bring out the best properties of the 4130 and reduce any variables in the tubing after welding..

there are sprint car guys who already perform this on their bare chassis..

there were several shops that had ovens large enough to slide a complete bare top fuel chassis into ..  this does expose the tubing to direct flame.. but thats the idea.. baking the carbon out and equalizing the (for a lack of a better term) temper..

chromed 4130 parts also need to be baked at 900F in a oven for 24 hours just before the chrome plating process begins.. this bakes out the hydrogen..  prevents the horrible and dangerous hydrogen embritllement.
i don't know how long the part can be left before it goes to the chrome shop for the first layers to seal it.. stop it from reabsorbing any hydrogen molecules from the atmosphere..

i wish that EAA would get with gord to find places to stress relieve aircraft engine mounts that are welded 4130 tubing.. and acrobatic wing structures.. that are made from 4130 tubing..  nobody likes their wings to fold at the wrong time..

i will probably be sorry i posted this...

i called the guy who writes the specs at SFI for top fuel and funny car chassis.. he told me about a decade ago.. that chassis manufactures have it all under control.. they use reverse polarity to pull the heat out of the welds so they don't need to stress relieve the chassis..  i so much wanted to ask him how he gets all the sand out of his eyes and nose when he performs the ostrich trick of sticking ones head in the sand to avoid the issues..

[Beck]

The first thing to do is go to an event as a spectator. Some class will grab you. After every Speed Week (the only SCTA LSR events I have attended) I come home studying the rule book checking out a class or two. I remember after my first trip I was hooked on the 302 GMC straight 6 so I concentrated on XO powered classes. After my 2nd trip I was looking at modified pickups. The 3rd year it was rear engine modified roadsters. Last year is was half a V8 in an altered coupe that interested me. This year I hate to admit which one it was, G/CGC. This was inspried by a brief conversation outside a restaraunt with a competitor. I never did get a chance to check out his car. Running on an open record, I think he set the mark in the mid 80's. Hmmmmm I can do that....

#1 question to ask yourself. Are you trying to break a record. If you answer NO then the class doesn't matter. You willl be competing against your own best time. If you answer YES then you need to study the current records. For example - don't try to set a record in B/BFCC. It is held by the Blowfish at 307. That is a tough nut to crack.

#2 question (if you answered Yes you are after a record) Do you want a Red hat (admission into the 200 mph club). Now you need to look at the current records and the minimums established by the club for that class. To get into the 200 mph club you must break the existing record in the class AND be over the clubs minimum speed for that class. (Blue hats are the 300 mph chapter of that club. D. Burrow, the Blowfish driver, got into the 300 mph chapter with his 307 run I mentioned in #1 above.)

If you answered YES to #1 you may have to change classes later. Just because the record is obtainable now doesn't mean that next year someone else with megadollars or just a better way to skin the cat will get into the class taking it to an unreachable level for you.

I think I enjoy the research and planning for a car more than if I actually built one. It sure is cheaper. The expense of building and competing a LSR is high. There was a new Stude (C/GCC) on the salt this year that was rumored to have $1.5 million invested. It was a showpiece. Pretty doesn't mean fast though. I helped briefly this year on another brand new Stude (XO/BGCC) out of MI. It to was extremely nice. It was less $$ but still way above my budget. The neat part was I got to help with it, until the 974 arrived. The 974 (AA/BGCC) isn't as pretty as these other 2 Studes, but it is a proven veteran. When it goes to the starting line competitors take note. The best part is I actually got to get dirty working on this one... Good times and memories.

When looking at expenses you need to consider that EVERYONE has the same money spent on safety clothing. These are NOT the $150 driving suits. Everyone has to have a Hans type device. Everyone has to have onboard fire systems. The faster cars require 2. Over 175 needs a chute. Faster yet and you need 2. Safety gear is expensive. The cage in a 100 mph car costs the same as a cage in a 200 mph car. LSR tires are big money (all the Comp Coupe cars above run LSR tires). Slow cars (like the G/CGC above) can get by with lesser tires.

Bigger motors are not always more expensive. C and B motors (306 to 440 ci) are abundent and easy to make power. The new motors from the Big 3 make impressive engines. BUT these classes are very competitive (remember the 307 mph above?). Many of the B and C records are faster thant the A and AA. If you don't care about setting a record but want to go fast, B and C motors are the way to go. Used NASCAR engines work well on the salt if you are willing to spend $15k. The 974 competed the first year with a SBC making about 450 hp and everyone had fun. This year the 974 returned with well over double the hp. We still had fun, but went home without a new record. One of the things we learned, Sumner can drive over 200 mph. Cool!

In the end the choice is yours. If you are a 4 cyl tuner, why would you go big block V8? If your garage is full of big block parts, why would you go 4 cyl? If you have a spare '27 Ford body why go looking for a Studebaker? There was a big motor home competing at Speed Week this year. Why? I don't have a clue, but I'm sure the owner knows and it's just what he wanted. There was an impressive Ford F250 with a huge V12 Detroit diesel competing. It isn't what I would have built, but I stopped what I was doing every time he made a pass to watch (200+ mph).

[Beck]

As Wayne said there are many NASCAR cars at Bonneville and other LSR events, like the Ohio Mile. They are fast, but at Bonneville they do NOT fall into a class. They race Time Only (TO). There is no record in the book for these cars. I think the ECTA (Ohio Mile and others) may have a class for them. Someone hopefully will post with that info.

[32Flames]

As Wayne said there are many NASCAR cars at Bonneville and other LSR events, like the Ohio Mile. They are fast, but at Bonneville they do NOT fall into a class. They race Time Only (TO). There is no record in the book for these cars. I think the ECTA (Ohio Mile and others) may have a class for them. Someone hopefully will post with that info.

Yes, the ECTA has classes for the NASCAR cars and run several based on engine and fuel.  At the Ohio Mile you will normally see Ron Keselowski, uncle of Brad Keselowski along with others like Dave Marcus, Al Piggott and a few more running in excess of 200 in the mile.  Ron is currently taking another run at Bonnelville which as Beck stated correctly does not have any classes for these cars.  Ron has been pushing for a class at Bonneville and hopes to see one soon.

[sirstude]

Tom,

I too have spent the week looking at the Classic classes like that Nova in G/CGC and it appears to me, that they added the G engine to all the Classic classes, except the single supercharged choice.  That seemed to make sense of what we were talking about that night.

For the rest of you, the guy we were talking to was working on a G/CGC Nova that was powered by a Mazda rotary engine.  It was not the one out of the RX7 but the little sedan.  G goes up to 122 inches and the small rotary is 60 inches. The drawback with rotarys is they double the size of the swept area for size determination.  So that little 60 inch rotary is now 120 inches as far as SCTA is concerned.  A little gotcha that I was not aware of, but those guys on the Nova were.

Doug

[Beck]

What I consider to be a big change in the Classic classes is allowing Foreign cars. They ran that as a trial in F motor class only previously. I guess they liked what they saw. The rule book now has them legal for all engine sizes. I think this is also new in the Gas Coupe classes.

The hardest part for me is trying to determine if a body is legal for CGC or GC. Some have to run in the Modified Sports catagory. For example, is a 1981 Porsche 924 with an engine swap legal for CGC? It meets the 1981 or older rule. It was a 2+2 seat car so it was 4 passanger. Some of this type car seem to be allowed while others are not.

Next stupid question. How would you mate a GM Ecotec or Ford Zetec to a Porsche driveline? The 924 has front engine/rear transaxle similar to the newer Vette's. The motor has to stay in front. Is the clutch in the front or rear on the 924? Can you tell I'm brainstorming again. I saw a pretty fair one for sale and the thought process started. If you let the stock motor in, the car has to compete in Producton. Looking at G/PRO the record was 174 prior to Speed Week. WOOO Just realized there was a Classic Production class. G is open record prior to Speed Week. I don't konw if anyone entered in those classes this year. The class designation is well defined in Production. 4 seats = coupe/sedan. 2 seats = GT.

Who knows how to tune a Porsche 924?  (See my post above - It is still expensive!!  Dreaming is cheap!!)

[unklian]

Next stupid question. How would you mate a
GM Ecotec or Ford Zetec to a Porsche driveline?

If you are allowed to cut the floor,
put the T5 trans where it belongs, behind the motor,
and run a Ford 9" rear.

Gear changes will be a LOT easier.
And parts will be a LOT cheaper.

If I was going to run a 4 cyl, I would use a honda K20.
Lots of aftermarket support, bulletproof design.

[wayne petty]

there are always deals like this.

http://www.racingjunk.com/Altered/181871986/Brand-New-140-Altered-Chassis.html

warning. read.. as this is the unfinished chassis. not the finished version.. he will finish the cage to your height...



here is another deal...

http://www.racingjunk.com/Dragsters/2923884/-BIG-MANS-CAR-230-INCH-CANODE-CHASSIS-.html

wonder if one could taper and stretch an elcamino body over it..  so the front wheels are in the opening and the driver behind the windshield.. the engine in the truck bed were it belongs..
just a thought...

just hang a body around it ..

since these are both chrome moly chassis.. any body attachment points might need to be billet clamp on over the tubes.. instead of attempting to weld to the chassis tubes as i described above..



just an idea....

[unklian]

Double check the rules.
Bonneville rules, like the cage,
are typically tougher than drag racing/oval track rules.
Specifically the wall thickness of the tubes.

there are always deals like this.

http://www.racingjunk.com/Altered/181871986/Brand-New-140-Altered-Chassis.html

warning. read.. as this is the unfinished chassis. not the finished version.. he will finish the cage to your height...



here is another deal...

http://www.racingjunk.com/Dragsters/2923884/-BIG-MANS-CAR-230-INCH-CANODE-CHASSIS-.html

wonder if one could taper and stretch an elcamino body over it..  so the front wheels are in the opening and the driver behind the windshield.. the engine in the truck bed were it belongs..
just a thought...

just hang a body around it ..

since these are both chrome moly chassis.. any body attachment points might need to be billet clamp on over the tubes.. instead of attempting to weld to the chassis tubes as i described above..



just an idea....

[Beck]

I am still dreaming of a B'ville car. Anyone want to dream along? Don't spend a lot of time or do any research on my following questions. It will all probably stay a dream....Never progressing from that.....

I have moved on from the Porsche idea posted above. I found the 924 motors are not fast. They have poor heads. Since the record is open it would still establish a record. If my goal was just to put my name in the book, it would work. I do want to go a little faster than that. I have probably driven faster on the street than the 924 can go on the salt.

My newest dream; I found a mid '60s Saab locally. It is for sale but the owner wants me to make an offer. I have no idea what he is thinking. I am thinking just above junk price. Really I'm thinking I better just keep dreaming....

The front corner has a light hit, but repairable. It has a 850cc 2 stroke, says the owner. I thought they had V4 2 or 4 strokes made by Ford.

This is a front wheel drive car. In Gas Coupe it needs to stay FWD.    I have not measured track width.   Do you think it would be possible to put a complete FWD assembly (suspension and all) from a Cobalt SS (Ecotec), Focus (Zetec), or Mazda(Duratec I think) in the front of the Saab?

I am not up to speed on the FWD framework. Don't some of the complete cradles drop out with 4 or 6 bolts? Does the front suspension stay with the car? What mounts the upper struts? Just sheet metal from the cowl?

A motor could be installed N/S (stock motor is) and use a 4wd transmission / Disable the RWD part of the transfer case / Put a solid FWD axle in.  It seems like there would be more power loss in this method. I'm thinking Solstice or Sky 2.0 turbo power if this was the route. Do Ford Escapes have a Zetec or Duratec mounted N/S?

Some B'ville cars run without suspension. That would make things easier. Suspension bottomed out against the stops qualifies as solid in my mind.

[Beck]

Wayne,  

Deffinately no motor in the bed of an ElCamino...
The frames you posted about can not be used in the Gas Coupe class. From the rule book, "The following items shall be retained in the stock location and of the same year as the body: frame...."  I would think you can add to or slightly modify the frame for driveline and suspension mounting.
The altered style frame you posted about (if SCTA legal) could be used in the Altered or Comp Coup door slammer classes or in the Modified Roadster classes.
The dragster frame (again if SCTA legal) could be used in a streamliner, lakester, or rear engine modified roadster (RMR) class. I like the RMR classes. They are fairly new after being outlawed for years. There are a lot of new ones every year. In the G size motor (just because I had been talking about those in the other posts) 3 of the 4 classes were open records prior to 2013. The G/FRMR (unblown fuel) record was at 162 mph so they are fast classes. Prior to 2013 all of the AA records were open in the RMR classes. I know there were AA/__RMR cars running this year so some records should be set. A lot of RMR records are open. In the AA/RMR classes expect to be above 270 mph if you want your record to stand for any time. These cars will run near lakester speeds.

[Beck]

Tom,

I too have spent the week looking at the Classic classes like that Nova in G/CGC and it appears to me, that they added the G engine to all the Classic classes, except the single supercharged choice.  That seemed to make sense of what we were talking about that night.

Doug

Doug,
Your right, CPS (Classic Production Supercharged) only has the C,D,E motor classes. That is easy to get around if you want to run this type of car. Install a non stock turbo AND/OR a motor swap, then it falls into the Gas Coupe class. Then you can run anything from AA to J size motors.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

interesting discussion. Pick the car first, find the class with soft record (in yur opinion) first?

Always lot to think about.

For several yrs there was a race to 100 mph for the J Production class between a Crosley and a Honda 600 sedan.


Many thoughts on the 2 different cars was interesting.  One path was the under body of each car.  It was felt the Crosley was at a disadvantage to the Honda since the bottom of thr Honda unit construction car was more "air friendly" than the body on frame design of the Crosley.

the Honda car "Evil Tweety"  finally hit 100 mph record for the class :  as I recall

[unklian]

Some guys are running bike motors in cars.
(serious hp/displacement, not legal in all classes.)