STARTERS AGAIN!!!!

BFS57 · January 04, 2013, 06:20:59 PM

Hello;
What the Fbomb! I thought I had cured my starter problem by installing a brand new mini starter (few months back) but it's evident that this starter (by the sound of it) is on the way out too!!
I'm a pretty simple guy, this is with out a doubt, the most challenging problem I have had!!!! I am beginning to believe that this problem is something other than the starters them selves!!?? Could it be timing??
I have gone through at least 6 starters! The last couple, (3) not including this present one, broke at the snout (Gear housing).
Someone tell me!!! I am just about out of ideas on this issue!!!
I took my time, made sure the bolts were right I didn't need any shims this last time. I could see it if my engine was a fancy high compression wiz-bang deal but it's just a pretty stock 350 and quite mild at that!

Bruce

phat46 · January 04, 2013, 06:33:19 PM

What is the motor out of originally?

Arnold · January 04, 2013, 06:51:28 PM

Timing. I used to time advance the initial until they had some serious resistance when hot..then back it off a hair.Good battery,cables,ground,hi torque factory starter(the small metrics) here in Canada that came out in the late 70's/early 80's on cop cars and taxis.
Iwould use old lazy emmission distributors so that I could get in 16-18 initial and only have about 18 or so total in them. So I would end up with 34 or so total..sometimes a bit more.Depending on the engine and gas etc. Using this timing and those old distributors saved me having to always play around with them. Just look up the specs you need and then find the dizzy that matched and stuff them in. Check them with a light.
Some guys ran..or had to so much initial that they had a seperate "ignition" switch.To power just the ignition.

I just HATE :!: starter problems. I stuck to used oem starters that had NEVER :!: be ruined by rebuilders. IF I saw evidence of "rebuilding" I just got rid if it. Always had/kept plenty of starters around.

The first little metric I saw I thought it was a joke. Then that was ALL I used. lol..I THINK they HAD to use them on Impala Cop cars around the late 70's/early 80's
as they had some triangulated brace on the frame that went at an angle on the frame to another part of the frame where the starter was. Nothing else would fit then :evil:

BFS57 · January 04, 2013, 08:12:53 PM

Hello;
Phat46: To tell you the truth I really don't know what the 350 I have originally came out of. Can't seem to find any numbers to indicate anything. I have heard that numbers exhist on the drivers side at the rear of the block but this 57 chevy has everything in the way but I was thinking I might try a mini cam on my little computer to try to "nose around" a bit.
As far as my dizzy goes, I think I need to replace the Ignitor 2 module with one I just got from Comp Cams. Or something else. I'm not a really tech savvy guy, if something needs changing I'm capable of changing it, not technically "tuning" it, and knowing just what the heck I'm doing, sometime.
I know that it is easy to get the starter bolts wrong between metric bolts and SAE bolts that both fit!? I'm using SAE that came with the starter!
Keep the suggestions and ideas flowin you guys, I really want to put an end to this problem once and for all!!

Bruce

Beck · January 04, 2013, 08:15:59 PM

My buddy was advised to advance the timing on his drag car by the engine builder this summer. 2 trashed high torque starters later he put it back to where it was. No more starter problems since.

wayne petty · January 04, 2013, 08:35:01 PM

small block chevy starter issues...

The BLOCK MOUNTING SCREW threads..

up thru 1981 .. they are threaded 3/8-16

from 1982 up.. they are threaded 10MM x 1.5 pitch.

performance GM blocks even thou they are newer are usually 3/8-16..

please check the fit of your bolts.. you cannot interchange the bolts.. disaster will result.. there is 0.020" difference.. the metric bolts are slightly larger... put them in with an impact or with big hands.. you will either snap them off in the block.. or split the ear off the block...

now...
starters can come in either bolt hole size...

please... CHECK THE FIT OF THE KNURLED section of your starter bolts in the starter nose but at the side that faces the bottom of the block. after you have verified the bolts fit the block....

this is a proper bolt selection for the starter...

why is this important.. if you use a metric starter housing over 3/8" bolts.. no matter hot tight you make the bolts.. it will eventually slip sideways...

the starter nose is aligned on the KNURLS...

for people with full size chevy starters...

now.. lets talk about the small starters...

do your mounting bolts fit tight at the mounting face??? or does it wiggle around..

if you loosen your 2 starter mounting bolts exactly one turn.. does the starter wiggle around.. (o ) ( o ) ( o) or is it night and tight (O)

putting metric bolts through a non metric starter can lead to issues... most factory style starters are drilled 10MM..

some starter shops used to have some thin wall 3/8 rolled shims to allow the use of metric drilled alternators on SAE bolt bracket applications.. i don't know if any alternator shops still have them... one might be able to use a thin wall valve guide liner.. but most are 0.015" thickwall.. so you are going to be about .402 so thats going to be really tight and 0.010. or so over for the starter holes.. i have NOT measured..

can you describe exactly what the symptoms are...

grinding while cranking???

kick out after a partial turn of the crank... wrrrr zip.. wheeeee... that is probably a bad starter drive sprague.

does it grind instantly upon attempting to start.... kazingggg that would kinda indicate the shift lever is worn and is allowing the solenoid plunger to bottom out in and close the contacts in the solenoid cap before the starter drive is fully engaged in the flywheel...

there have been issues like this where the Distance between the flywheel and the end of the starter drive is to great...

i don't think i ever got an answer to this from the truck owner.. but i think it looked like the torque converter pilot was not free to slide in and out of the pilot bore on the back of the crank... so the flywheel was flexed backwards away from the starter when the torque converter bolts are tightened...

wayne petty · January 04, 2013, 08:57:46 PM

Quote from: "BFS57"Hello;
Phat46: To tell you the truth I really don't know what the 350 I have originally came out of. Can't seem to find any numbers to indicate anything. I have heard that numbers exhist on the drivers side at the rear of the block but this 57 chevy has everything in the way

Bruce

well... the block casting numbers are ON The back of the block
the upper surface where the bell housing bolts up.. use a mirror... the date code is back there also but it might be on the other side...

sometimes.. there is a big number in the middle of the sides of the block... visible from under the car... above the block drain plug..

on the passenger side cylinder deck.. there are also 2 rows of stampings there if the block has not been decked/surfaced..

it will have a series of letters some numbers and more letters.. post them all..

the second row will be slightly smaller numbers usually.. thats the last digits of the vin number of the car/truck it came out of..

rooster · January 04, 2013, 11:14:58 PM

Quote from: "BFS57"Hello;
I am beginning to believe that this problem is something other than the starters them selves!!?? Could it be timing??
I have gone through at least 6 starters! The last couple, (3) not including this present one, broke at the snout (Gear housing).

Bruce

The snoot broke off like this one?

Just some insight!

Is it nosie?

Good luck with this!!

BFS57 · January 05, 2013, 07:01:08 AM

Hello;
A brief history of this car, since I bought it is that starters have ALWAYS sounded funny, I even changed motors and the problem followed!
It ate a starter at my dentists office one day and I had the car towed to Ken's Performance here in Orlando. Diagnosis, Broken snout, just like the video showed. Ken did: Replace the flywheel (the teeth on the old one didn't look bad), Install a (rebuilt) Remy, and added the brace on the back side of the starter. That starter lasted about 6 or 7 months (don't forget, I drive this car every day!!) and it died. When I removed it, I noticed that the (after removing the solenoid) place where the gear was mounted to be able to engage, was all loose and had a lot of "sloppy" play in it. That snout had begun to crack as well. I took that one and used it as a core to get one from a parts house that told me theirs was "the last" one I would install. That one lasted about 2 months. I recoginized the sound of the starter failing! It starts to start, but sounds like it "jumps" has a horrible loud whizzing sound then grabs and turns the engine to start.
Thats when I bought this mini starter and installed it. Everything seemed fine except my 57 chevy sounded like a Toyota! Now, this starter is doing the same darn thing (3 months) Thats where I am today!
I was thinking of trying to get my car to the only starter and alternator rebuilders here in orlando, over by Kissimmee as they do installs as well, and have them try their hand at fixing it!
As the car now sits in my driveway, I'm hoping it will start at all to get it someplace, If it won't start then I have to "get" something to (another starter) even get the car someplace as I live in an area that has a bunch of BS rules about working on your car in your driveway (don't get me started) !!
Here is my supposed game plan.
1. try to find out just what engine I have!
2. try to get the car to a near by garage for repair, letting the owner know (he already kinda knows) a brief history of the problem and possibly get him to look at the info you all have posted to help him make a repair!
I do have a really great mobile mechanic that has done work on a couple of our trucks and cars at work. His reality is he does get the job done no matter how!
Thats where I am now! What do any of you think?

Bruce

wayne petty · January 05, 2013, 10:40:06 AM

3. are the current bolts SAE with six stripes on the head OR metric with numbers on the head like 10.9 or 12.9..

4. since its a pain to attempt to check engagement..

can you photograph or spray paint the flywheel teeth.. and then start the engine a few times to examine the gear tooth pattern...

i don't know why you keep having problems.. especially with motor changes but i hope we can direct you towards a fix...

curious.... what about your ignition system...

do you have the same distributer??? thru all these issues... if so what kind... GM window points type?? transistor ignition GM.. HEI ..... MSD... mallory unilite..

can you get the cap off.. grab the ignition rotor and twist it against the advance springs... then release.. grab it again.. see if it returns tightly to its stop the other way... if its hanging up do to rust or corrosion.. or even worn bushings in the weights. it can keep the ignition advanced when the engine is off.. causing you starting issues..

what kind of ignition switch are you running.. if you have electronic ignition.. point type GM ignition switches break the IGN1 contact while the switch is in the cranking position. this switch requires the ignition power to come from the starter solenoid I terminal.. then turns the power back on when you release from the cranking position..

what happens is if the interplay between the 2 circuits is not timed correctly... the ignition power can come back on an instant before the starter drive is retracted.. breaking the starter nose... you have probably heard engines that seem to start as you release the key.. yep.. that a variation...

but... with a mini starter how are you supplying ignition resistor bypass current??? you could use a cube relay with it triggered off the solenoid control wire.. so it bypasses the non powered while cranking situation..

you can perform a test with a test light and a short test lead.. clip the gator clip of the test light to the positive side of the coil... use a second gator clip test lead from the engine block to the pointy end of the test light to complete the circuit.. lay the test light on the wiper blade so you can see it from your drivers seat... crank and start the engine.. what does the light do?

?

i am sorry to BOMBARD you with tech info on. do this.. do that.. if you did not live on the far side of the country i would just have you drop by with it..

BFS57 · January 05, 2013, 01:46:15 PM

Hello;
Update, took the car to a near by garage. He put it up on the lift, took off the cover and did a few test. Then he tried shimming, that didn't work! Then he took the bolts, I thought were too long, removed the washers I had put on the bottom and screwed them in all the way@ Works fine, so far! Gotta have time to see.
Wayne, as far as my dizzy goes, it started life as a Mallory Unilite, that pooped out on me one day, found a Ignitor 2 and installed it. Now I have a Comp Cams replacement I want to install (actually I would like to use a large cap HEI but no room) and see if that makes it start easier and faster! If that doesn't work the next plan is I have another dizzy I got used, I plan to send it to Dave's Small Body HEI for conversion to HEI Cost is about $250. I think this is a good move on either way I go, except if the Comp Cams module doesn't let the engine start right up!

Bruce

wayne petty · January 05, 2013, 02:02:36 PM

do the TEST LIGHT TEST on the coil positive.. and slowly turning the key from Off to run to Crank.. then back to RUN then to off..

you could JUST Have a ignition switch issue.. as i kinda described above...

i have covered this same exact issue on a LOT of different forums...

this is what i recommend for the late 60s GM cars...

i don't recall if you have key on the dash.. or key on the column with the later model columns..

this is what a tri 5 chevy ignition switch usually looks like...

sure looks like you could possibly upgrade for about 30 bucks... and have an ignition 1 circuit that does NOT open in the cranking position....
i cannot personally say this will work.. as the ridges on the side of the ignition switch body look slightly different..

the test light test probably takes about 10 minutes...

Arnold · January 05, 2013, 02:07:06 PM

Quote from: "BFS57"Hello;
A brief history of this car, since I bought it is that starters have ALWAYS sounded funny, I even changed motors and the problem followed!
It ate a starter at my dentists office one day and I had the car towed to Ken's Performance here in Orlando. Diagnosis, Broken snout, just like the video showed. Ken did: replace the flywheel (the teeth on the old one didn't look bad), Install a (rebuilt) Remy, and added the brace on the back side of the starter. That starter lasted about 6 or 7 months (don't forget, I drive this car every day!!) and it died. When I removed it, I noticed that the (after removing the solenoid) place where the gear was mounted to be able to engage, was all loose and had a lot of "sloppy" play in it. That snout had begun to crack as well. I took that one and used it as a core to get one from a parts house that told me theirs was "the last" one I would install. That one lasted about 2 months. I recoginized the sound of the starter failing! It starts to start, but sounds like it "jumps" has a horrible loud whizzing sound then grabs and turns the engine to start.
Thats when I bought this mini starter and installed it. Everything seemed fine except my 57 chevy sounded like a Toyota! Now, this starter is doing the same darn thing (3 months) Thats where I am today!
I was thinking of trying to get my car to the only starter and alternator rebuilders here in orlando, over by Kissimmee as they do installs as well, and have them try their hand at fixing it!
As the car now sits in my driveway, I'm hoping it will start at all to get it someplace, If it won't start then I have to "get" something to (another starter) even get the car someplace as I live in an area that has a bunch of BS rules about working on your car in your driveway (don't get me started) !!
Here is my supposed game plan.
1. try to find out just what engine I have!
2. try to get the car to a near by garage for repair, letting the owner know (he already kinda knows) a brief history of the problem and possibly get him to look at the info you all have posted to help him make a repair!
I do have a really great mobile mechanic that has done work on a couple of our trucks and cars at work. His reality is he does get the job done no matter how!
Thats where I am now! What do any of you think?

Bruce

I am pretty much lost here.MY APOLOGIES IF I SEEM RUDE!

Starter problems..the same? when you have CHANGED engines.

Back to a good battery,cables,grounds.

Forget about an ignition switch until this is dealt with. Use an on/off switch for the ignition. Use a push putton switch for the starter. Even a remote starter switch.Until this is done and figured out. When that is done..re-wire your ignition and starter switch.

There are really only basically 2 starters involved here. 350 sbc. Either the block has metric or sae threads. Get a 3/8 or 10m bolt. Put it in by hand. It is a good/not sloppy fit right? Which ever one works get either a metric or the other starter. Leave the "shimming" of the part of the starter case where the bolts go through to someone else.Which ever fits the bolts snugly.Get some new starter bolts. Get a new..or an oe starter from a bone yard. Leave the junk rebuilt starters at the rebuilders. People have chased junk rebulit starter after junk rebuilt starter until they have gone crazy.The starter must be shimmed. Off with the solenoid. Between the starter drive teeth and the flywheel. The flywheel has good teeth right? It is not loose? Sorry..don't laugh..been there done that. Auto? Flexplate is not cracked or out of round? Been there too. You can't move the crank back and forth or up and down right?

Forget about power to the ignition. You need a nice cranking sound. You may have such a cam that the cranking pressure with YOUR timing are too high. Back off the timing. Power up the ignition. Advance the timing until it is going to fire. It may very well be that the cam you have requires so much initial that you are going to end up with a seperate ignition and starter switch. Been there too. One switch..the ignition..cranks the engine..the other supplies power to the ignition AFTER it is cranking a bit.

You are sure it is not a "hot soak" situation. Been there done that.
IF the starter has a terrible time cranking the engine AFTER it has been hot and sat...THEN THAT has to be dealt with. Whatever that is. Turn the crank by hand..ratchet whatever on the dampner bolt. Compare hot and cold.

I knew someone that went through a few starters..had a terrible time starting it when hot. I heard it crank(everything else was good) and said there was too much internal friction..and there was.

SORRY!!! He had the WORST OIL!! I had ever seen. Just like tar.
True story sadly.

I had a starter problem in a hot start truck. Recent valve job.Bone head machinist.
Pretty much zero valve to guide clearance.Clued in when a few pushrods bent..and a few rockers pulled out..

BFS57 · April 16, 2013, 03:55:37 PM

Hello;
Well, here is whats up. Found out that my block is cracked at the inside bolt of the starter. The outside bolt however is good. Kens put another starter on it this time instead of stagered bolt pattern it's the straight bolt pattern. They said my block had both! Don't know how it's going to go from here but I guess I should start looking for a replacement block or total engine.?
Now this could have been the situation ever since I put that motor in the car! Mabe over time it just got worse! Anyone's guess!
Anyone know if there is a "fix" for this?? Or is a new block my only option?

Bruce

wayne petty · April 16, 2013, 09:02:05 PM

first... did anything get checked at to

if the bolts are SAE or METRIC???

since the block cracked.. the only way that can happen is that the block is threaded 3/8"-16 and somebody installed a M10x1.5 bolt to mount the starter.. this breaks a LOT of blocks..

0.375" is 3/8 -16

0.392 is M10 x.1.5

if the starter is drilled for the 10 MM mounting.. no matter how tight you make the starter bolts.. its going to jump around. there is just TOO MUCH force there..

repairing it requires creating a drill jig... by precision measuring off another block... and creating several jigs..

or using drill bushings ... so you can restart the hole..

weld up and redrill and tap the block..

drill over size straight with a jig..... tap... with a jig... so its straight..

measure the depth of the threads...

on a lathe.. take a grade 8 bolt... drill thru it for the proper tap drill size... counter bore the same depth and diameter of the undamaged bolt holes.. run a tap thru the rest of the drilled hole... cut a slot to use something like a drag link socket or a security bar bolt driver bit to set the new custom insert you have created into the block.. and its fixed..

the position has to be within a few thousands .. it has to be counter bored.. as the starter aligns on the knurled section.. that actually fits into the counter bore..

if you are using the parallel bolts .. thats just fine... so the point is kinda moot..

i still would like the block casting number and julian data..

and which bolts type are currently installed..

?