instrument senders

tom36 · June 05, 2012, 05:04:14 PM

OK, here's my dilemma: I'm using a 50's Kaiser instrument cluster in my Model A. Kaisers were 6 volt positive ground.I have a Chevy 12volt neg ground engine.I can cut the gauges to 6 volt but I can't seem to find the senders for the engine that will make the gauges read anything. I don't care if the gauges work backwards as I'm just looking for an indication of "normal" I have mechanical oil and water gauges on the engine. I have searched for original Kaiser senders with no luck. I have the fuel and amp gauges working. Any ideas, suggestions? Tom...

oj · June 05, 2012, 05:48:20 PM

How about a seperate 6v battery - lantern etc or some nicad that can have a recharger build in etc lots of ways to do that - but anyway, seperate the dash gages source voltage to the dedicated battery and wire it positive ground. it should work right along with the 12v system and be independant at the same time.
The sending units are likely a single wire working on resistance, i'd trying different sending units until you luck onto the right ones. You can test them off the engine and then install the right ones.
I keep thinking of a drill type battery that you can just plug in and use when you are cruising and then stick into a charger at home. You might be able to get away with like a mikita 9volt and still read ok.

enjenjo · June 05, 2012, 08:05:47 PM

What senders have you tried? Guages are not polarity sensitive.

wayne petty · June 05, 2012, 08:36:32 PM

reverse engineering is needed unless somebody knows what senders are used... senders might be the same as in other brands from the same manufacturer... but i could be totally WRONG.. i usually am ...

this is a 10 K trimmer pot for 4 bucks at EVERY radio shack

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062308

this is used between the in your system.. the positive connection and the sending unit wire.. to replace the sending unit for reverse engineering.. you still have to create the rest of the circuit around this pot for bench testing.. or testing in the car..

you can use the first and second.. or second and third lead to adjust the pot to get the gauge to move... remember this is reverse engineering ..

i would think that i would buy 2 of these and some toggle switches... one for on .. off..

another for left and right... perhaps 4 switches .. and 3 trimmers...

most senders have resistance values listed for 100F.. and for 212 F ... so if you can turn one pot.. so the gauge reads 100F.. and the other that reads 212F...

this gives you the ability to flip a switch to get the calibrations needed to operate your gauge..

now that you have them.. disconnect from the gauge.. read the resistance with a digital volt meter in OHM setting..

you can then post the results and i will try to reverse engineer a sending unit that matches those needs.. there are probably over 100 to choose from...

what size port you need will also help.. where the sender screws into... 1/8-27NPT, 1/4-NPT, 3/8 NPT, 1/2NPT

warning... you will have to USE extreme care.. there is a LOT more to go.. this whole info i have posted it just to select a POSSIBLE sending unit that will get you into the ball park.. its not a final device for your car...

tom36 · June 05, 2012, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: "enjenjo"What senders have you tried? Gauges are not polarity sensitive.

I have tried a Chevy temp sender and a vdo temp sender. Gauge is on cold when off and goes right over to hot when running. I haven't seen it go down in the short trips I have run it so far. Direct reading gauge on engine reads 190/200. I haven't been able to locate an original Kaiser sending unit. For the oil pressure, I found on a Kaiser site that said to use an International Harvester unit which is procurable. Shows good oil pressure on start up and slowly goes to practically nothing. Direct reading gauge reads 45/50. I have a 53 Mercury that I put a 351W in and used the 53 gauges. All indicate except the temp gauge works backwards (starts hot and works toward cold, stabilizing in the middle). As I said, I'm not so interested in accuracy, but just an indication of "normal"
Thanks for the help guys...

wayne petty · June 05, 2012, 10:23:08 PM

temp senders specs are listed on the last 8 pages of the emission control illustrated catalog. just click the link and it will open on your computer if its configured properly..

http://www.napaechlin.com/NAPAEchlin-Site%20Map/Content.aspx

or possibly this direct link...

http://www.napaechlin.com/upload/NAPAEchlin2/Documents/ECH_NA141_HQr.pdf

on the site map page is a reference guide 2 or 3 below the emission illustrated guide.. that also has all the specs on not only the temp sending switches.. but oil pressure senders and fan switches... i just cannot seem to get it into any other mode than page turner.. but then i have an old mac..

might be available in print from napa stores.. if you have the numbers off the cover..

if the links above don't work...

start at this page.. click the site map at the bottom left

http://www.napaechlin.com

there are 8 pages of temp sending units.. many with specs.. take a look you will see what i mean...

enjenjo · June 06, 2012, 12:16:18 AM

I did some investigation, that leads me to believe that Kaiser used King-Seely guages. They also used an instrument voltage regulator. This in turn leads me to believe Ford sending units will work, as Ford also used King-Seely Guages.

you can also use a Ford instrument voltage regulator to keep the guages at 6 volts, which Ford did into the 80s.

tom36 · June 06, 2012, 08:26:11 AM

Quote from: wayne pettytemp senders specs are listed on the last 8 pages of the emission control illustrated catalog. just click the link and it will open on your computer if its configured properly..

Wayne, a lot of info here and a good site to save for future reference. I couldn't find any 50's Kaisers though and the specs for the various senders is by part # Did spend a few hours wandering thru the site though

tom36 · June 06, 2012, 08:28:35 AM

Quote from: "enjenjo"I did some investigation, that leads me to believe that Kaiser used King-Seely guages. They also used an instrument voltage regulator. This in turn leads me to believe Ford sending units will work, as Ford also used King-Seely Guages.

you can also use a Ford instrument voltage regulator to keep the guages at 6 volts, which Ford did into the 80s.

That seems like a good avenue to pursue. I'll report back with my findings. Thanks, Tom...

wayne petty · June 06, 2012, 09:18:23 AM

hmm...

perhaps.....

http://www.kfclub.com/

somebody there might have some sender specs...

http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,2506.msg11025.html?PHPSESSID=cd78649b8dd01e41eca85158ec0214b0#msg11025

Kaiser instruments are designed to read bottom of the scale when the sensor outputs 71 ohms, and full scale at 10 ohms. The temperature sending unit decreases its resistance as the temperature rises.

with this info. and the napa info... all you need now... is what thread size you need for the block.. so the sensor is the same size or smaller than the hole in the block or head...

there are 3... close... the first one is very close...

TS6044 wells /autozone TU69 don't forget that the napa shows 16ohms at 248 and wells shows 26ohms at 220..

TS6153 this one is 17 ohms at 220

TS6070 wells autozone Tu84 this shows 24 to 20 ohms at 220F napa shows 15.5 ohms at 250F

enjenjo · June 06, 2012, 09:44:16 AM

A couple numbers. Oil pressure sender is Echlin PS113 Fuel sender is king seely 44504

38HAULR · June 06, 2012, 08:27:15 PM

Industry practice with 12v systems was to commonly use 5v regulation for the gauges. this is via a pulsed bi metallic device.
This gave stable readings over voltage variation in your electrical system due to loads[lights /accys /high speed/idle.
Best replaced today by a three pin solid state 5 or 6v regulator from an electronics store for under $2. these are common rated at 1amp.
In my Mustang I whacked two in parallel on a heatsink.

To test the sender requirement for a given gauge. Substitute the sender with a wire wound potentiometer or variable resistor.
This way you can set "Empty" or "Low" " Half" "Full or High"
At each setting disconnect the resistor and measure with an OhmMeter.
Note the readings.
With this info selecting a sender becomes easier.

Hope this is of further assistance.

Frank.

tom36 · June 08, 2012, 12:48:25 PM

UPDATE. I found and installed the oil pressure sender Enjenjo found and on start the gauge goes to 50 lbs and when warm stays in the middle so that works for me. The temp sender part # TU 69, that Wayne found, turns out to be for a 79/80 Mazda rx7, and none of the local parts places had one so it is on order and when it comes in, I'll report back

Thanks for the help guys. Tom...

wayne petty · June 08, 2012, 02:49:23 PM

Quote from: "tom36"UPDATE. I found and installed the oil pressure sender Enjenjo found and on start the gauge goes to 50 lbs and when warm stays in the middle so that works for me. The temp sender part # TU 69, that Wayne found, turns out to be for a 79/80 Mazda rx7, and none of the local parts places had one so it is on order and when it comes in, I'll report back Thanks for the help guys. Tom...

to mount that sender... as it is metric thread.. use a brass male pipe plug... probably a hex head version.. drill and tap the to allow you to adapt the i think 8MM thread..this might get more complicated.. i should have posted the thread size.. its 8mm X .75 thats finer threads than the 8x1.0 and 8x1.25 that are normally available...

perhaps one of the members has that tap and can drill and tap a brass hex male pipe plug if you mention what size you need... 1/8NPT, 1/4NPT, 3/8NPT

on second thought... i wonder how close 5/16-24 is... probably not close enough..

in case nobody has one.. and i bet that somebody does..

this is 6 bucks..

http://www.biscotoolsupply.com/home/bis/page_245/metric_hand_taps_8mm_x_.75_high_speed_steel_spec_p.html?rid=base

sorry for getting you cross threaded...

tom36 · June 21, 2012, 09:54:43 PM

Update. Finally got the sender (TU69) and the tap. Tapped a hole in a 1/2" brass plug and mounted the sensor and installed same in the manifold.
On start the gauge goes way below the "C" on the gauge. As the engine comes up to temp the gauge also rises. The original Kaiser was 71 ohms cold and the Mazda sensor is 104 ohms cold so the gauge operating normally will be a t the cool end of the the scale. As I said I'm not interested in accuracy, merely an indication of "normal". This I now have so thanks to Wayne and Enjenjo and the Rodders Roundtable for all the help. Tom...