I just bought a 48 Ford F1

[bowtietillidie]

Thanks to one and all it appeared to me I jumped the gun and stole the post.     Glad you all see things differently.    

[348tripower]

The beauty of all this is we are all getting some valuable information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to one and all it appeared to me I jumped the gun and stole the post.     Glad you all see things differently.    

[enjenjo]

Thanks Gpster  for the offer, I have a Mustang 2 cross member (fat man ) and may have to use it.  I have done a good bit of reserch on this idea and I think I can do this without making any changes ( all bolt in ) The biggest thing will be mounting the rack . I made a profile template of the front axel .  I beleive I can mill out a couple of pieces of steel to fit the axel then mount the rack to them all the while keeping the rack square to the axel and level to the ground . This mount will hold the rack in a staright line with the steering arms so the ackerman will not be changed ( steering arms remain in stock position) Now for the movement of the axel.   I am looking to lay the rack over about 90 degrees so the steering shaft is parallel to the ground.  As the axel moves up and down
it also swings an arc as near as I can figure in four inches of travel in bump and four inches in rebound. there is about .040. arc movement from static height ,above and below the static line.  I beleive there will be maybe a little more at the steering shaft do to the fact that the steering shaft is now moved away from the steering arm centerline. Now take the .040 figure and double it this will be the amount of slide needed for the steering to work with out bind.   I THINK, I HOPE      I have one other little problem with this set up that being clearing the steering shaft with the lead pipe on the left header.   I am thinking of cutting the left rod that the tie rod screws on allowing the rack to move to the left .  Then rethreading this rod, then using a short tie rod in the left side.  Then make a male, female piece for the right side and add the right tie rod. I think this can be done without changing any geometry I HOPE. Maybe Bob Paulin could give us his opinion on all this craziness.  I hope I have explained this good enough that every one understands what I am trying explain. I think it is easier to build than explain a project .   What say you RRT'ers    

Rob  

I see one big problem with this. A Mustang is a front steer, and your F1 is rear steer. So if you mount the rack in the rear, you are going to have to learn to steer backwards. So look at a Horizon rack, dimentionally similar to a Mustang, but rear steer. The Mustang tie rod ends will even fit it. All the other ideas you mention should work

[bowtietillidie]

 I have thought about this rack & pinion project till my head ackes.   And I can not figure out why a front steer rack will know the diffreence between being mounted in front of the axel or behind the axel.  if I take a front steer Rack off of a front steer car and mount it behind as rear steer rack .   Now exclued all other hook ups except ,   hooking up the steering wheel to the rack steering shaft .   Now remember we changed nothing other than moving the rack from a front steer position to a rear steer position.     How will this make this rack steer left to go right and right to go left . Or more importantly do I have my head in a body orfice that the sun doesn't shine on unless I am at a nude beach.     The main reason I want to use a Mustang rack is it has good mounting points,   but I will use any thing as long as it mounts with bolts and not straps with a rubber mount.  I feel safer when my steering is mounted solid. Please remember I am not disagreeing with anyone but I am trying to get everyone thoughts.  The more angles a problem is looked at the easer it can be solved .   So I'll be play Rocky Balboa and you guys try to knock me out    

[enjenjo]

To convince yourself it will steer backwards, Mock up a steering system from popsicle sticks, or cardboard strips, and see what it does when you move it, and which way the parts move.

I remember some years ago designing a front suspension from scratch, and after it was all finished, watching in horror as the front of the car went all the way to the floor when I set it on the wheels. I had to do the whole thing over, designed properly this time. Just trying to save you that step.

And trust me, the rack will know

[348tripower]

Ed,
 What have you done to the rear of this truck? Changed rear ends? Springs? I like the way it sets. Also, what is the wheel and tire combinatiion?
Don

I have a 1949 Stock F1, but my first project has been my 1950 F1 that I put a mustang II, with 11" disc power brakes, power steering, 9" rear end 3.5:1 posi rear gears, and here goes a 327 63 vette motor with a 700r4, griffin al. radiator with dual spall fans, moved the gas tank to the back and the filler I put in the rear fender well, and to my surprise the truck runs great and handles great.  My first truck you guessed it was a 1950 F1 that I drove to college when they weren"t cool. Now my boy and I will be starting a auto body class in a couple of weeks to start on the outside. He did a large part of the tig welding and that was when he was 16 he now has decided to be a certified welder.  And top it off my wife loves the truck.  Ed ke6bnl

[Ed ke6bnl]

Ed,
 What have you done to the rear of this truck? Changed rear ends? Springs? I like the way it sets. Also, what is the wheel and tire combinatiion?
Don

The rear end I pulled from a 69 mustang that was the 61.25 drum face to drum face with the same 5x4.5 bolt pattern that I had for the mustang II in the front, but not being from a truck I had to make new spring perches and shock mounts.  I removed 4 of the 10 leafs every other and put teflon spring leaf liners between the remaining leafs. The gear ration was 3.08 and I picked up a diferential from a old style bronco with 3.5:1 gears and positraction that I put in the housing.  The rims are American torque thrust II with the stock back spacing.  rears 275x60rx17x8" and the fronts are 245x50x17x7" They are a very close fit up front.  The truck seeems to handle like a little sports car and it all works well tied into the 700r4 o.d. transmission. 3.73 of 4.10 would be better for the 327 motor but $75 for the mustang rear end and 60 for the Bronco 3.50 posi rear I am please to have what I have. Ed ke6bnl



endote="Ed ke6bnl"]I have a 1949 Stock F1, but my first project has been my 1950 F1 that I put a mustang II, with 11" disc power brakes, power steering, 9" rear end 3.5:1 posi rear gears, and here goes a 327 63 vette motor with a 700r4, griffin al. radiator with dual spall fans, moved the gas tank to the back and the filler I put in the rear fender well, and to my surprise the truck runs great and handles great.  My first truck you guessed it was a 1950 F1 that I drove to college when they weren"t cool. Now my boy and I will be starting a auto body class in a couple of weeks to start on the outside. He did a large part of the tig welding and that was when he was 16 he now has decided to be a certified welder.  And top it off my wife loves the truck.  Ed ke6bnl

[/quote]

[My52Chebby]

Going to pick it up Saturday morining.   Now the questions start!  Anybody here have any experience with one of these? What does it take to lower the front end without subframing it? I have a 355 Chevy and a turbo 350 in stock also a 9" for the rear. What would be a good replacement steering box to use with the stock I beam? If I go that route. Any suggestions and past experience is greatly appreciated.  
Don

Congratulations, Don! There isn't a cooler Ford pickup than the '48-'50 F-1, IMHO.  
 
I'll be dropping my '48 in a couple of weeks, after the "salt" from Speed Week has settled and things return to normal.  I'm considering several options for the front. I have an excellent old Mor-Drop 3-inch dropped axle, plus several spring options from which to choose -- new spring packs with reversed eyes and less arch than stock, new main leaves with reversed eyes to use with the original front spring packs, and Posies Super Slides with a reversed eye at the forward end of the spring.  
 
I'd like to try all the combinations so I can develop some comprehensive instructions about how much the various combinations drop the front end, although at this point the reversed-eye springs will probably give me what I'm looking for. (My '48 is an exceptionally clean original F-1, rust and damage free, with an old inexpensive respray in the original color. I'm going to stick with a flathead V8, but am replacing the old four-speed with a late Mustang T-5. I'm doing the truck in the style of a '50s speed shop truck, so I'm not looking to get it super low.)  
 
My '48 has been well maintained throughout a rather leisurely life and drives amazingly sweet for a 56-year-old vehicle. I've driven late-'80s F-150s that didn't ride any better! In spite of that, I'm going to rebuild the suspension and steering during the drop. This includes new kingpins and bushings, new tie-rod ends, new drag-link ends, and new shocks.  
 
I'm uncertain about what I'll do with the steering. At present, it's quite good and may need no more than service and adjustment, possibly sector bushings. You're bound to hear many complaints about F-1 and early F-100 steering, but other than requiring a bit more muscle than more-modern units, they work great when in good condition and service, and when the rest of the front end and steering wear points are also correct. The complaints about the original steering go up as the front  
comes down. The most common complaint is about the truck wandering all over the road at highway speeds after reversed-eye springs or a dropped axle are installed , but the culprit isn't as likely to be the steering box as it is the lack of caster; it's 1 to 3-1/2 degrees stock which isn't very much to begin with, and dropping only the front end several inches scrubs off a couple of degrees which isn't going to improve the situation. There's been some discussion here with enjenjo who is a big fan of 5 or more degrees, so caster wedges are definitely in order.  
 
For all that, I'm considering a change to R&P steering mounted directly on the axle because that will give me an F-1 steering box for my next hot rod project!    The R&P conversion has been done with great success, using a rear-steer rack from a smallish Chevy (I don't have the model or year info handy right now), connected to the original column with a U-joint and a GM slip joint to accommodate up-and-down movement of the axle. Of course, the lower end of the steering mast jacket and column must be secured either at the firewall or the frame. I don't know if this changeover will occur right away. I'll be doing my work in Kent Fuller's shop and Kent is a strong advocate of the R&P changeover, but I think he might let me "slide" for awhile so I can gather more seat-time and information with the suspension changes using the original steering.  
 
I don't know that this is any real help right now, Don, but I'll keep you posted here on the RRT as things progress. Hope you'll do the same.  
 
Mike

Hi aV8,  
 
I cringed when I read the paragraph I highlighted in your text. I had a '40 Studebaker 4 door sedan with a blueprinted 327 and 4 speed Muncie. I had converted the front suspension to an I-beam suspension out of a Chevy van using the transverse spring from the stock Studebaker front suspension with fabricated radius rods. I decided, like you, to mount my R&P solidly on the axle. I had seen it done in Rod Action magazine of the time.  I too used the GM slip joint as suggested in the magazine article.  
 
On it's maiden trip, in the Summer of 1976, I had taken my young family to a Rod Run organized by our car club. On the way back, as I hit an expansion joint entering a bridge, I quickly learned about "unsprung weight"... When the front suspension hit the bump at the expansion joint, the car's suspension rebounded and the axle's weight (with tires, rims, brakes AND rack & pinion) did not follow as quickly as the rest of the car and the slip joint slipped out!!! There I was, doing 60 MPH and all I had time to do was to turn around to my wife and 1 1/2 year old daughter in the back seat and say : "HOLD ON!!!" Then the adrenaline kicked in, everything in my head slowed down to a crawl, I didn't panic, I gently tested the brakes and they pulled to the left a bit, the crown of the highway pulled the car to the right. I checked my rearview mirror, luckily, I was on a divided highway with no one behind, besides or in front of me. An 1/8th of a mile ahead of me the highway gently turned left but there was an overpass with massive concrete pillars looming. I braked, I prayed, I braked, I sweated, I braked a bit more... As my right wheel hit the gravel on the side of the highway I hit the brakes hard and we veered right suddenly and stopped up an embankment a hundred feet or so from the pillars. At which point my wife asked : "Why are we stopping here?"!!!  Seconds later, you couldn't have thrown a ball across that highway, the semis and cars where just whizzing by at highway speed.  
 
In the years since, when I pass that very same spot, I always count "1 potato, 2 potato..." and I've never been able to count more than SIX POTATOES at 60 miles an hour... That's SIX SECONDS!!!  
 
aV8... I would think long and hard before went the R&P on a solid axle route...  
 
Regaining my composure...  
 
I just love your truck... And I only came across your post because my project is now a '52 Chevy pickup (I traded it for the Studebaker 3 years ago, owned it for 31 years) and I did a word search for "Mor-Drop". I've been trying to purchase a 3" dropped axle made by a company called Cen-Pen (the axle is sold by Classic Performance Products). I say "trying" because I been given the run-around for delivery dates... They (Cen-Pen) keep pushing the date back 2 weeks later than whatever day I call on... That's why today, I called Mor-Drop in California. A Google search came up with a phone number which I called. They're still in business producing dropped axles same as they did back-in-the-day. I have an old index box of my Rodding magazines that I kept up until 1979. I checked it and sure enough, I found a 4 page article in the June '73 Street Rodder, p.28 dedicated to Mor-Drop (at the time they had been in business for 20 years). Interestingly, still at the same address, still run by the same owner. He must be in his late to mid sixties now (so what, I'll be 58 in June). Their prices have changed a bit, as has everything else, at $300. a drop instead of $15. quoted in the article... LOL  
 
aV8, can you get back to me? I'd like to know more about your great looking truck.  
 
My52Chebby

[enjenjo]

I think CenPen has gotten in over their heads as far as demand on these dropped axles. I know him personally, and he is a straight up guy. The only thing I can figure, the demand is so big he can't keep up.

Losing your steering at any speed is a thrill isn't it? I don't ever want to do it again.

[My52Chebby]

Last communication I had with them was a phone call over a week ago where he was going to check with the machine shop to see if he could speed things up for me.

That was the last I heard of him... I've sent him dozens of emails since, always with a touch of humor but I guess they've tired of me and don't think I'm funny anymore, just a pain in the butt.

I would much prefer having their newly fabricated axle than shipping my old axle half way around the world (I'm on the East Coast of Canada, Mor-Drop is in California). This afternoon, if Marty, at Mor-Drop, had accepted credit cards instead of requiring a cashier's check, and allowed me to pay the core charge, and if he had actually checked to see if he had a 3" dropped axle in stock... Well, I would have an axle going cross-country as we speak!!

I truly do want to give Cen-Pen a chance to come through for me and I'd still be willing to wait for as long as they needed BUT they really should communicate with me!!!

My52Chebby

[bowtietillidie]

To all concerned :    I have progressed in my project  F1 . I have the motor and trans in the truck ( 402 bbc / 400 turbo )   and an 8" ford rear
and disk brakes on all four corners. The brake change over was made in my shop( to tight to by a kit)  Now for an update on the R&P to a straight
axel .    After getting it in my head the difference between a front steer and rear steer racks I proceeded with a read steer R&P out of a Dodge(FWD
 I made some blocks that mount to the axel and hold the rack level to the ground and parallel to the front axel.  I rolled the rack so the steering shaft is laying over at about 30 degrees from parallel to the ground in hope that this will help with the rack movement problem. I plan on using
a double u-joint  a double D shaft and a hiem joint to get the rack hooked up to the column.   BTW  a bbc fills up the engine bay nicely ( can you say tight)  I hope this gives some food for thought to any one thinking
of putting a R&P on a straight.    This job is not near complete and I am always open to Ideas .   So lets hear what you all have to say.     Rob

[X38]

Easiest front suspension I have ever seen is a Jag. Real cheap and everything is already mounted to the Jag crossmember 'cept the upper shock mount. Two bolts per side is all you need to attach it to the truck - 2 hour job tops.

You get big discs, power steer, real good ride, Chev bolt pattern and it sits good 'n' low.

Seen a couple done already and a friend is in mid build with one in an F1 right now. Too easy.

[My52Chebby]

I just got an email from Chris Worm this morning and I was wondering if it was because of an intervention on your part. If it was, it is truly appreciated.

The Cen-Pen axle is what I really, really want under my truck. Just getting the email from Cen-Pen, although I still don't have a confirmed delivery date, gives me renewed hope and now I feel I'm in the loop again.

I'll let you know when I get my tracking number from them... Once I do, I know I'll be getting up at all hours of the night just to see where the UPS truck is with my axle. I'll follow the axle's every move until it gets to my door!!!

My52Chebby

[mopar2dr]

Could this be the new F-1 roundtable?? I just picked up a 48 F-1 too. On the way home I spoted an 88 Dakota 2wd longbox pickup for sale. $125 dollars lighter in the wallet I own another Mopar. The Dakota wheelbase is about a foot longer than the old Ford ,but that can be altered. A friend who is building his 48 f-1 had a spare injected 302 with a ford aod. The price is right at free. Now if only I can find the time to get at this project. The old 48 Dodge is looking a little ragged around the edges so it is getting some attention. It will be going up for sale this summer along with the parts car.

[av8]

I truly do want to give Cen-Pen a chance to come through for me and I'd still be willing to wait for as long as they needed BUT they really should communicate with me!!!

My52Chebby

The fellow represented by Dave Mann does outstanding work, as good as the original More-Drop axles in the '50s. Vern Tardel has used about 10 so far and every one of them was accurate and symmetrical with zero distortion of perch-pin and king-pin holes.

http://www.roadsters.com/axles/