Starter AGAIN!?

[BFS57]

Hello;
What the heck does it take to get a good starter these days?? Seems I'm always changing the * thing out!
Now, I need a few hints about "shimming" the darn thing. Got the new one in, but it acts like the sellinoid is defective as it cranks good a few times then, "nothing" a couple times, then works fine a couple times??
It sounds tight so I thought it may need shimming. Is that true? Educate me please!

Bruce

[phat46]

Hello;
What the heck does it take to get a good starter these days?? Seems I'm always changing the * thing out!
Now, I need a few hints about "shimming" the darn thing. Got the new one in, but it acts like the sellinoid is defective as it cranks good a few times then, "nothing" a couple times, then works fine a couple times??
It sounds tight so I thought it may need shimming. Is that true? Educate me please!

Bruce

Where did you get the starter? If it was at the AdvanO'reilyZone it's probably a bad starter. Go to a  reliable rebuilder and get one. Be sure to take the engine number with you. There is a difference in Chevy starters. I went through this before. Gave up and took the car to a performace shop; they told me just a shim problem, have it fiixed in no time....three days later and a new flex plate it was the same. They took the numbers to a good rebuilder down the road and the rebulder got the correct starter. that was about ten years ago and no problems since.

[Mikej]

I don't understand why you won't change to a mini starter?

[BFS57]

Hello;
I have heard "stories" that "mini" starters arn't as good as some would believe.
I am about to try anything at this stupid point!!
Got the starter I just replaced from CarQuest,(Re-Man In Mexico)
Next I plan on calling a local rebuilder and see what they have to say. And BTW, I had my flexplate replaced too!!!

Bruce

[Mikej]

This is what I was told in school. If you replace the Delco starter save the nose cone from the old one and use it on the new one.
   I have BBC 10.75 : 1 compression that went thru 2 Delco starter when I first bought it. One was a new GM starter. Wouldn't start when hot run the battery down and quit working. Year of that and in goes a good mini. $150 10 years ago. Not the $90 rebuild. No more problems. Wish they were available in the 70's with my 11.5 : 1  SB 327 . It was always eating starter. Good luck.

[wayne petty]

Hello;
What the heck does it take to get a good starter these days?? Seems I'm always changing the * thing out!
Now, I need a few hints about "shimming" the darn thing. Got the new one in, but it acts like the sellinoid is defective as it cranks good a few times then, "nothing" a couple times, then works fine a couple times??
It sounds tight so I thought it may need shimming. Is that true? Educate me please!

Bruce

a few things... almost all new cars use a LOAD DROPPING RELAY to engage the starter solenoid ..     GM starter solenoids can draw 50 amps of power..

i use an 70 dodge dart starter relay...



this takes all the load of the solenoid off the cars wiring system..   reduces  it to about 3 amps..  instead of 50 amp...   makes the starter kick in so fast and hard to bottom the plunger to close the contacts.. its a different car...

i use 10 gauge wire...  between the new relay and the solenoid..
you will need in yellow ring terminals

3/8 id
5/16 id
#12 id two times..   you will probably need to cut the end of the loop open on one of the #12 terminals and open the fingers into a fork type connector for the solenoid end..

in the smaller wires.. blue terminals..2  female 1/4 qd.. a #12  and probably a something in a ring terminal for ground.. 1/4 . 5/16 or 3/8

i use a small nut and bolt to extend the purple solenoid ring terminal on the factory harness to a ring terminal on the extended wire. wrapped with tape.. as i don't like to cut the factory end off..  on other peoples cars..





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

if the GM starter needs shimming..   use a 1/8 welding rod.. or drill bit between the starter SHAFT and the outside of  the ring gear teeth..  that is the neat and easy way to tell if its loose or too tight..

i have taken vixon files used for lead body work and shaved the top off starter noses. to make it fit perfectly..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

on the starter BOLTs.. into the block..  production blocks up to 1981... are threaded for 3/8-16 starter bolts with a knurl...

production blocks newer than 1981.. are threaded for 10mm X1.5 pitch bolts...

with the starter down...  shove the bolt through in the proper direction...  see how tight the knurled section of the bolt fits in the hole..  



ONLY the HOLE facing the block counts.. as most starters have slightly larger holes where the bolts go through except for the MOUNTING face...

the knurled area of the bolt positions the starter nose cone in an EXACT position.  

the Metric bolts are just over 0.020 larger than the 3/8 bolts..   so if you are installing a metric starter on an SAE threaded block.. you will get the starter to shift out of position no matter how tight you make it..  causing NOISE and breaking the starter nose sometimes...

a HUGE warning..     attempting to install METRIC starter bolts into an SAE threaded block.. will usually either break off the bolt in the block.. or BREAK off the corner of the block..  its been done too many times.. would you like to see pictures/??..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


the starter brace...



these are under 10 bucks at almost every chevy dealer... and many gm dealers..   i don't have the number handy...

be careful that the bolt into the block does NOT bottom out..    

i have taken to using 2, 1/4 inch flat washers on the stud to sandwich the bracket on the starter stud..    the brace also shortens the ground path from the engine block to the starter brushes..

what...   ever been inside a starter.. the negative brushes are riveted or screwed to the starter case/tube...  the ground has to come through the block where the starter nose is bolted.. then to the housing.. ... with the brace installed.. the distance is shortened.. it goes right through the brace to the end plate to the housing..   gm starters work better this way...


i hope this helps..

[BFS57]

Hello;
Wayne;
On that Dart relay, am I supposed to connect battery power to the bottom stud? Also, On the Chevy starter, there is a small stud that has a wire going to the coil, I don't see on the Dart relay? If I used the Dart relay, how would I ad the coil wire (it just gives 12V to the coil for start up)
Didn't check the knurls but I do have a "dog leg" bracket! also, the starter bolts (when I just removed them) were on so tight I had to use a 1/2" ratchet in order to make enough torc. When I put on the new starter, I snugged the bolts then tightened them with the 1/2".
Also had a interesting talk with a local co here (Moonlight Starter) that will take my car and check it out.
Before you showed me the Dart relay, I was considering adding a Ford solenoid that eliminates the chevy one. I need to decide what to do soon, as this starter problem can bring me to a grinding halt anywhere!!

Bruce

[rumrumm]

After purchasing one of these Canadian-made CVR starters, I have had no problems. I highly recommend them.

http://cvrproducts.com/protorque-starters-chevrolet-gm-engines/

[wayne petty]

On that Dart relay, am I supposed to connect battery power to the bottom stud? Also,

sorry for the rough drawing..    the battery cable stays in the same place on the GM starter....  you are NOT bypassing the GM solenoid...  as it has multiple functions that CANNOT be bypassed..   this dart relay is to energize the solenoid windings with more current faster...


On the Chevy starter, there is a small stud that has a wire going to the coil, I don't see on the Dart relay? If I used the Dart relay, how would I ad the coil wire (it just gives 12V to the coil for start up)

the BYPASS wire from the R terminal to the coil (+) stays in the same spot on this conversion..




Didn't check the knurls but I do have a "dog leg" bracket! also, the starter bolts (when I just removed them) were on so tight I had to use a 1/2" ratchet in order to make enough torc. When I put on the new starter, I snugged the bolts then tightened them with the 1/2".

please ... always check the KNURL fit...  the bolts need to hand screw into the block... if you have to use a big ratchet to turn them in or out.. you might have the wrong bolts..

Also had a interesting talk with a local co here (Moonlight Starter) that will take my car and check it out.
Before you showed me the Dart relay, I was considering adding a Ford solenoid that eliminates the chevy one. I need to decide what to do soon, as this starter problem can bring me to a grinding halt anywhere!!

again.. the GM starter mounted solenoid CANNOT be bypassed  

this set up just BOOSTS the available current to the starter solenoid windings..  makes the whole system work better..




[/i]

[BFS57]

Hello;
How can I tell if the Bell Housing is SAE or Metric other than the knurls?
You know, I've had this car for quite a few years and have been driving it every day (almost).
When I first bought it, it had a 350 and TH 400 trans in it. I had starter problems then! Then I switched engines and bolted up a 700 R-4 to it, but before that, I bolted up the old flywheel and bell housing to the new engine. So now I have a different engine and trans but the same flywheel and Bell Housing.
About 6 or so months ago, had the flywheel replaced and the starter I just took off put in at Kens Performance. Thought my problems would go away, but still have them. I bet the starter problem I have is caused by the old Bell Housing!
When the starter "goes out": it makes a sound like when the engine is running and you mistakenly turn the key to "start" only way louder!
When I had the car at Kens, I had to have it towed there because "the starter went "out" In fact, Ken told me that the nose of that old starter had broken! That starter also had issues with the little bolts holding the soealinoid in just coming out on their own!
What the Hell! Thats why I want or need to know if I need to change the Bell Housing! or what?
This is a real head scratcher!

Bruce

[BFS57]

Hello;
How can I tell if the Bell Housing is SAE or Metric other than the knurls?
You know, I've had this car for quite a few years and have been driving it every day (almost).
When I first bought it, it had a 350 and TH 400 trans in it. I had starter problems then! Then I switched engines and bolted up a 700 R-4 to it, but before that, I bolted up the old flywheel and bell housing to the new engine. So now I have a different engine and trans but the same flywheel and Bell Housing.
About 6 or so months ago, had the flywheel replaced and the starter I just took off put in at Kens Performance. Thought my problems would go away, but still have them. I bet the starter problem I have is caused by the old Bell Housing!
When the starter "goes out": it makes a sound like when the engine is running and you mistakenly turn the key to "start" only way louder!
When I had the car at Kens, I had to have it towed there because "the starter went out" In fact, Ken told me that the nose of that old starter had broken! That starter also had issues with the little bolts holding the soealinoid in just coming out on their own!
Been buying Starters from Auto Zone but Ken put a rebuilt Delco remy in and look what happened!
What the Hell! Thats why I want or need to know if I need to change the Bell Housing! or what?
This is a real head scratcher!

Bruce

[wayne petty]

what bolts are in the starter NOW...

look at the head....   do they have a six stripe pattern. indicating that they are SAE thread...

or do they have numbers on them.. like 10.9. or 12.9...

indicating metric thread..

but thats JUST what's installed...

are you planning to remove the starter and inspect the knurled area for fit...

you can.. LOOSEN the starter bolts Exactly 1 1/2 turns each.. then see if the starter can be shifted around.. if it does.. it could be the wrong starter..

remove ONE bolt ONLY... leaving the other one tight..

examine the threaded area.. see if the threads are distorted by forcing them into the incorrect hole...

check the casting numbers on the block.. and the julian date...  even the stamping numbers from the passenger side of the block where the head gasket does NOT cover .. there will be 2 rows of stamping there.. one will have letters and numbers.... the usually smaller sized stamping will just be numbers.. and is the last digits of the VIN code the engine was installed on at time of assembly..


do you still have my phone number.. maybe we should talk this out..

[BFS57]

Hello;
I have tried to find any ID numbers on this engine a couple times. The area on the front pass side is nil and void of numbers indicating that this block has been machined. Is there someplace else to look? I tried in the bach on the drivers side, but my head is way to large (like the rest of my body) to get any ID numbers. I guess I should try to find a camera to try to locate numbers here!
Any starter I put in starts out fine but ends up pooping out, some sooner than others. I don't know if it's just crappy junk they use to rebuild them or what?
My starter on my Vicky is terrific! I think it's a King Chrome one from Speedway.
I will get under this weekend and have a good look see around, I'm thinking I want to re do the wires going to the starter to make sure of better contact!
I did note that there seems to be a minor oil leak someplace above the starter side cause the block and starter bolts had oil on them. (valve cover?)

Bruce

[zzford]

A typical Ford starter relay works well for the use that Wayne described.