2004 Buick Regal Ignition switch problem

Started by Erick, May 23, 2011, 11:47:53 AM

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Erick

#15
May 29, 2011, 09:08:00 PM
Picked up a scanner in town like the one you suggested. Ran the test to recieve error codes and didn't get anything back. Started the car to see what happened. For some reason it runs better but it's missing. Ran the scanner again and stated the #6 cylinder had a misfire. I erased the code to see what would happen but the miss was still there and the code came back up on the scanner. I also noticed that the red Security light does not go out during any of this. It just stays on, it does not blink. Not sure what to think of that. I haven't taken the spark plug out yet. Getting dark and the parts stores are closed for the day. Thanks Wayne for all the help and the links. We hardly mess with this new stuff.

Also should let you know that the car was run for about 10 minutes last night when it was a very rough idle. Not sure if that would cause it to foul out a plug.

wayne petty

#16
May 29, 2011, 09:27:50 PM
you did not mention if it was s supercharged motor so i am guessing its NOT...


there are 3 of these coils....  they are all the same..  

except the spark plug wires on each go to a different pair of spark plugs/cylinders..

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/C849/image/4/

mark the coils....   swap the one on the cylinder with the misfire.. to a position on the module that is not misfiring.. start the engine and see if the misfire followed... it if did.. swap on a new coil...

be sure to OHM the spark plug wires... with the digital ohm meter set to 200K scale..    the meter should display a number smaller than the length of wire in inches...

a 24 inch long wire should display less than 24 on that scale... 10 to 15 would be good...  24 on a 24 inch wire is the ITs bad point .. 1,000 ohms per inch max....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is the ignition control module....

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/DR158/image/4/

these have been known to fail on just ONE section...  most of the auto parts stores can bench test these...

you can also use a timing light...   move from wire to wire...

if the module is dead in one section..   you won't get spark down a pair of wires from one coil...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
it is possible that the coil is shorted internally...

this is a waste spark system...   the spark comes out of one coil terminal.. down the wire to the spark plug.. jumps the gap...  across the engine .. jumps the other spark plug going the other way . up the other wire to complete the circuit..

if the coil is shorted internally..   the spark from other wires might find this is a short cut to ground and light off the wrong spark plug..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you might also want to do a visual inspection of the coils.. look for circular dust areas.. where high voltage has been leaking through the plastic.. look for cracks in the plastic...


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please DO NOT PULL ANY SPARK PLUG WIRES OFF TO CHECK FOR SPARK...   why... the spark has to make a complete circle... coil tower to coil tower...  yank one off..  the spark has to return any way it can.. right through the module..   the module components burn out at around 50 volts.. as they are designed to switch about 14 volts.. these coils can put out over 100,000 volts..

Erick

#17
May 29, 2011, 10:53:43 PM
No. The car is not supercharged. I swapped the coils around and it still misses on the #6 cylinder. Also took a plug wire off a running car and hooked that in place of the current plug wire running to that cylinder. Still missing with a known good plug wire. I didn't mess with taking the ignition control module since the auto stores are closed. It's all just kind of weird. Didn't have a problem with it running like this until after having to monkey with the new ignition lock cylinder. Plus still not sure about why the security light stays on even after the car has been running. From the links I read and the video it said the security light should go out once the new lock cylinder and key were programmed in?

wayne petty

#18
May 29, 2011, 11:00:02 PM
Quote from: "Erick"No. The car is not supercharged. I swapped the coils around and it still misses on the #6 cylinder. Also took a plug wire off a running car and hooked that in place of the current plug wire running to that cylinder. Still missing with a known good plug wire. I didn't mess with taking the ignition control module since the auto stores are closed. It's all just kind of weird. Didn't have a problem with it running like this until after having to monkey with the new ignition lock cylinder. Plus still not sure about why the security light stays on even after the car has been running. From the links I read and the video it said the security light should go out once the new lock cylinder and key were programmed in?


change the other wire on the same coil.....

remember they are hooked together..

Erick

#19
May 30, 2011, 11:38:50 AM
Replaced both plug wires on that coil and still misses on the #6 cyl. Took the ECM off and had it bench tested. They tested it 3 times and checked good each time. Talked to them some about the security system for GMs and how I had to replace the lock cylinder. They said GM makes a real pain the rear security system and it's common to have problems like this after changing out the lock cylinder. Usually have more problems with the Malibus. I explained what all was tried already, how it misses, and that the security light is staying on. They said others have had this problem and the only way to clear it is to have a GM dealership wipe the computer clean and reset it. Too bad it's Memorial Day. Nobody open. Thanks guys.

wayne petty

#20
May 30, 2011, 11:49:32 AM
were you able to use the timing light on all the wires...  verify spark on each wire...


any chance the fuel injector wires got moved...

there should be a 8 or 10 pin connector coming out from under the intake where the main harness plugs into the injector harness...

you can disconnect that... and ohm the individual injectors...

not all scan tools... especially generic scan tools can read every code...

the hf unit will read many codes... but its limited slightly... but for the price... it does a great job in most cases....

you might also want to make sure that when you have the scan tool plugged in.. that you are looking at the engine data... not transmission section...   when i plug mine into late models... it usually goes to the transmission data stream unless i select engine...

Erick

#21
June 10, 2011, 01:00:59 PM
Just wanted to update you guys on what I found out. Did narrow it down to there being a bad fuel injector for the #6 cylinder. So replaced that and ran much better. I also had to bit the bullet and take the car in to a dealership to reset the security system on the car. The bad thing is now the car is acting up just like it did right before the ignition lock cylinder and injector went out.

It hasn't been a week yet since I got the car running right. I went out two days ago, changed the oil, and started the car. Seemed like a hard start right away, fired up, idled a little rough for a couple seconds, and then evened out and ran fine. I went to start the car yesterday and wouldn't fire. The engine turns over fine but the engine won't fire. I tried again this morning and still won't fire. I have put a charger on it now so I don't run the battery down. I am doing some research as to what the problem may be. When I turn the ignition switch to ON I noticed I didn't hear the fuel pump prime like I usually did. I turned the ignition off and on several times to make sure I heard it right. I did fine one place that talked about the fuel pump relay might cause this. I'm going to narrow that down first.

The car does have spark. I checked all the other components before such as the coils, ECM, spark plugs, and wires. They all worked fine. If you have any other suggestion please let me know. Thanks.

wayne petty

#22
June 10, 2011, 01:18:58 PM
how did you determine the injector was bad???

did you disconnect the injector main harness and ohm the individual injectors via the harness???

or did you take it to the dealer and they told you an injector was bad and changed it saying that fixed it...???  can you verify with your eyeballs that there is a new injector..

can you reach around and verify the injector plugs are all inserted properly...

is the security light back on...

do you set any trouble codes???

can you look at the live data stream...

look at the long and the short term fuel trims...

if it shows a percentage... + or - numbers thats good.. if it shows OL  or LO...  that shows the security system has locked you out somehow..


does the engine start and run when you spray some carb cleaner into a vacuum fitting into the intake...


when injectors short... they will set a code... the 2004 computer is that smart...  when it shorts.. the quad drivers will shut down to protect the computer..

Erick

#23
June 19, 2011, 11:18:36 AM
Sorry for the late response. Finally had some time and a couple days to look at it. When I took the car in to reset the security system they also did look at why it was running so rough. They said they found  a bad injector and I did check and it has been replaced with a new one. It ran great for about a week at least. I talked to them again about the issues I'm having now. I took it over to them to check it out again. They said it was a bad fuel pump. I brought it back home and changed it myself.

There are no engine codes coming up on the scanner. I checked at home and the shop checked also and came up with nothing.

We pulled the gas tank when changing the fuel pump because it had a ton of white crystalized debris that I'm sure is from using ethanol or whatever it might be. It plugged up the pickup screen on the pump and the pump seized up. The problem now is after putting the tank back in with the new fuel pump it still won't start.

We have an '01 Regal that my dad drives. So with that car I swapped my fuel pump relay into his car to check it and it worked fine. Put his into mine and no change. Also hooked the new fuel pump I bought up to the wiring in his car and it worked fine including the sending unit. We went back to my car with a test light and there is just no power coming to the pump. We checked the various fuses for the fuel injectors, fuel pump, and a couple others. They all checked out good.

Not sure of other things to check as to why there is no power going to the fuel pump?

Thanks

wayne petty

#24
June 19, 2011, 11:40:37 AM
first....  do you own a locking fuel cap ??????

white crusty stuff in fuel systems ...  might be sugar...


there is a fuel pump relay in the load center under the hood...

the covers can be gently removed from the fuel pump relays... and the contacts squeezed together to pressurize the fuel system.. unless its totally clogged by sugar... that would explain the clogged injector...

i will look around for the fuel system wiring diagram....

Erick

#26
June 21, 2011, 03:23:03 AM
Just doing an update on this. We messed around with the relay like suggested but nothing different. Checked more fuses for the different circuits with fuel, emissions, and a couple others to be sure and all checked out good with a meter.

Reviewed the wiring diagrams really good. Noticed that one for the fuel pump wiring circuit that the PCM is wired into the circuit and has a relay built into it to provide power to the fuel pump relay and power for the fuel sending unit. Spent a couple hours researching this and found that a short in a circuit can cause damage to the PCM. One area of the PCM that can be damaged by a short is the fuel system with the symptoms of poor idle, or like in my case, turn the engine over and not fire because the PCM had shut down the power to the fuel system. It also explains why the fuel sending unit isn't working right because it reads I have a full tank when it really has about 5 gallons in it. When I hooked the pump up to the wiring in the other car the pump worked fine and the fuel sending unit worked good. When I took the old pump out the pickup screen was completely plugged up with sugar. This is where we are sure the sugar caused the motor to get hot, seize up, and short out the system.

I did find an article where some people got lucky by unhooking the battery for at least ten minutes or more as this can wipe memory from the PCM. I unhooked it and left it overnight but still no power to the pump.

So by having checked all the other possible things, reviewing the diagrams, and researching problems on the internet that others have had and researching the symptoms, I'm sure it's the PCM. I read some old posts on a couple other forums of others having the same issue with the fuel system and changing the PCM fixed it. I can put a new or good used PCM in myself but I know that I will have to go back to the dealership to have the computer and everything else reset so it will work again.

If anything I at least have some sugar at home so now I can make that cake I was thinking of trying. We are thinking of trying to figure out the power issue for right now and then maybe track down some parts to replace part of the fuel system because of the sugar.

Thanks for the help.

Almost forgot to add that I'm looking for a locking gas cap now. Just trying to find the one with the right shade of pink or the right flower patterns. Haha.

wayne petty

#27
June 21, 2011, 12:47:04 PM
the bottom view of the fuel pump relay..

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/wl2/19271/2/image/4/


if you can open this image and do some image correction.. you will see the numbers.

pin30____________________pin86


pin85______pin87A________pin87

pin 30 is connected to power from the fuse
pin 87A is connected to the fuel pump...



in this image you can see the latches on the side of the relay..

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/19271/image/4/

one can gently pry off the cover...   if you squeeze the contacts closed with your fingers or a tip of a tool. you can power the pump... without the ecm....



locking fuel cap...

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/cst/5504/image/4/

kinda like closing the barn door... after the horse has left... but..

rooster

#28
June 21, 2011, 07:51:53 PM
Quote from: "Erick"We went back to my car with a test light and there is just no power coming to the pump. We checked the various fuses for the fuel injectors, fuel pump, and a couple others. They all checked out good.

Not sure of other things to check as to why there is no power going to the fuel pump?

Thanks

Is there power to the relay?

My 95 Olds had 2 fuse's 1 under the hood another under the dash buried and wraped in tape.

I feel your pain!
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