Another Crazy Question .....

[UGLY OLDS]

Any body own an "All Wheel Drive" Astro Van??  How 'bout a Blazer or S-10 pre-'95 with a Vortec 4.3???  

 I have some questions about mileage --Driveability --etc .....

  Thanks ....


Bob..........

[jaybee]

The AWD Astros were real popular around here, still fairly common on the roads.  

I put some miles on a company S10 Blazer though it was never my daily.  It got about 21 on the highway and I enjoyed driving it.  Quite sure footed when things started to get greasy.

[taxpyer]

I have friends with AWD Astros and they like them.   They say they get good gas mileage and handle well as does my TWD '89. Word of caution............ :!:  I just replaced the motor on my '89 Safari and it went good but in the process I ran across fellows who have done engines in the newer AWD versions.  They say the best way is to disconect the clip, jack up the body and remove the engine/tranny that way as it is a real bear to get at in the vehicle.  So, buy a good one with LOTS of warranty.
I love my Van but after my experience I'll not buy another because of the difficulty in repairing the new ones.  
One thing about it is if you had to do that you could sandblast and paint the clip.

[UGLY OLDS]

We own a '94 AWD ...Had it since '96..Bought it almost new ...It's been a good truck ..Expensive to maintain, but still a good value for what it is ..Great handling .. Almost as good as my K1500 in the snow .. It would probably be as good if I wasn't 'fraid of tearing off the spoilers & air dams ..

My concern is mileage ..or lack of it ..I know they were never known to be "economy specials" , but with gas over $3.00 per gallon it's gettin kinda hard to justify the expense ..
I know folks with the "normal" TBI powered 2 wheel drive models that get 18 to 20 MPG on the road ...

Mine has a "W"code Vortec 4.3.. With the goofy "spider" injector ... This is my 3rd go-round replacing the injector in 132K miles .. We use good fuel ..Don't let the tank run low ..Use methanol in the winter to absorb moisture ..Etc ..  I don't remember our fleet vehicles going through that many "back in the day" .. Fuel pumps??  LOTS of them ...Linier EGR valves??  Until GM introduced the "second design" we used to replace 5 or 6 a week ...

These injectors run about $400.00 for a Delco or a Delphi....They can be bought for less but the quality drops VERY quickly along with the price .. By the time you add a couple of fuel tubes & the necc gaskets & misc you are spending $500.00++  for parts only ... As you explained , once you have had the "adventure" of working on an Astro Van, you could do micro-surgery with boxing gloves on ....
 The last year for them was 2005 & it's almost impossible to find "decent" examples of 3 seat vans with less than 95K miles on them ... ( The good ones NEVER are for sale .....Hmmmmmmm :?  )

 The '98 & later vans have a different type of transfer case that "free-wheels" the front axle until slippage is experienced.. the front axle is then automatically engaged ...Some people have gotten 20+ MPG on this type of van ...
   Does anyone have any "secrets" on how to get some mileage out of the Vortec style engines  ...


Thanx....Oh...Please excuse the rant ........

Bob ......

[wayne petty]

i have a 98 safari 4.3 in the yard right now.. but its a 2 wheel drive version....

darn thing is hickuping... once in a while it feels like somebody with a 7 pound sledge hammer has gotten a full swing at the inside of the crankcase...

another shop told him the injectors were bad... so he picked up a spider and brought it over...  its still acting strange... i have the timing cover off right now..   swapping on a fresh timing chain.. its got 244K on it..i did the lower intake gaskets about 2 years ago...

this is the same one i made the big wrench for...  i am finally getting back to it...

what's strange.... before i tore it all the way down...  i fired it up.. and even plugging and unplugging the cam sensor made no difference...

more work on it tomorrow...  

with these.... one needs to really check the the long term fuel trim and the integrator ... both should be right around 128 if the engine is running close to what it was at the factory...  

if they are on either side by more than a few numbers.. time to look at other things causing problems...

this is the chart.. one might want to print several copies of it...  write your sensor data on the proper line to see what it should be...   not all cars use every line of data...

[UGLY OLDS]

Wayne ... I kept notes on the last time I ran the vehicle with the scanner attached ....O2 sensor voltage running in the .890 to .990 mV range ..
(Occasionally dropping to .450 for a split second when the sensor warms up & starts "switching" .)

 Interrogator counts around 78 to 84  ??  
 Ran the "block learn"out to cell #16 before I shut it down ..( The count in cell # 16 was 107) ..

 Injector pulse was 1.3mS...
  Rich Lean Flag ..."Rich" ..( YA THINK   :?:  :?: )

 Ran a pressure test ...Kon / Eoff...61#'s..  Kon / Eon ..varies right around 58#s...Fluctuates as normal under load...Turn the key off .... Drops like a rock to 18#s...

Reviewing the above data, I think I have a handle on where the issue is ..( Hmmmm...:?      Choke Stuck  :?:  :?:    ) ..

The Crazy thing is that ALL the rest of the system was/is normal & in range ...And it will NOT trip the SES light until I "induce" a code ..( Ie: disconnect something to set a code) ...

 Its time for injector # 3 to go into this thing .. I don't mind the repair ..Again., it's a GREAT vehicle for my wife to drive, but if I'm going to spend this kind of money , ( AGAIN) , I just would like to increase the mileage if possible .....

  Wow ....I talk a lot .... :(D)


Bob........

[wayne petty]

are you sure that the fuel pressure regulator is not gone..   the pressure dropping to 18 at shut down.. really points in my mind to the fuel pressure regulator...

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/gps/800-315/image/4/

thats replaceable...

dorman sells them... other companies also...

see if the area under the fuel pressure regulator is clean...   it should all be DIRTY...  the only fuel spray should be down the intake ports...

but you knew this...

1.3Ms i thought would be a good...

block learn at 16... very very bad....


i was wedged up under the vortec today.. its dark under there.. all my Torx 40 bits are broken... so i could not get off the oil cooler adaptor...  by the time i put everything away... so i could drive to the local AZ and return the harmonic damper installer and replace the torn up T40s...

oh well... happy turkey day anyway...

i just cannot understand why you are going through the injectors so often..

do you still have all your old injector spiders stuck around in the corner..    perhaps... building a new one from the multiple used ones...  new individual updated versions are available individually...


http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/gps/800-1223N/image/4/

[UGLY OLDS]

Wayne ...  Thanks for the tips.. I knew about the regulator but this one is running with a "Half Dead Hole" .. One cylinder only .. Enough to hear & feel ..not enough to trip a code ... :evil: ... I figure if I'm going in I may as well do the injector ... The poppets the link is for I think is for the '96 & later injector ..  GM changed the thing in '96 so it fires as a sequential system.. Still one big injector supply but with 6 little single fire injectors ..It made all the difference in the world on those engines ...( '95 & earlier were a "batch fire" type ..All 6 poppets fires three times per revolution ... Economy??   Ya Sure ....  ) ..The biggest failure I've seen with the injectors is actually from heat .. It gets awful toasty in that manifold & the complete injector & feed/return lines are all plastic .. Stuff gets brittle & breaks ... Even the Dorman replacement lines are plastic ...YUK   :!: ..
I got a handle on the repair , I,m just beatin' the bush's looking for mileage tricks ....   Oh ...The best part ...what do you think of the "variable plenum" manifold ??  Ever since new you can actually feel mine open & change the way the engine pulls ...Incredible .....  

 Thanks for your help ......


Bob ..................

[river1]

for injectors try

http://www.lindertech.com/reconinj.htm

good guy, he's known as Bubba on the HAMB

later jim

[UGLY OLDS]

for injectors try

http://www.lindertech.com/reconinj.htm

good guy, he's known as Bubba on the HAMB

later jim

  Thanks Jim.... I have 2 e-mails in to him already ..I think he may be on vacation this week ..I plan to call him on Monday ....


Bob....

[wayne petty]

just finished the gmc safari...

somebody should probably change the name of this thread to astro van  safari van... so its not so non automotive...



now.. the 98 safari van is done.. i have a few comments..

when one is running rough...

first thing...  change the distributer cap... and the rotor...

the cap has crossed conductors embedded inside the plastic.. this van was giving me Hel...  i had done a cap and rotor about a year ago..  

the engine was running horribly...  backfiring.. detonating.. banging..  just running totally terrible..   since i was out of town when it first got bad.. he took it to another shop.. changed the spark plugs and wires... got them through the area behind the removed front tires...   still ran like cra   p....     the other shop .. said they had fixed a LOT of them with a new spider injector set...  and quoted him a small fortune for one...   he parked it...   when i got back.. you know the problems i had getting the fan clutch off ..

i stuck the new GP sorenson fuel injector in.. what a pain.. but take it slow... its not to bad...   cleaned the throttle body.. make sure that every thing was correct..     still ran like cra...        

but it was banging.. like somebody had a sledge hammer going off inside...  banging so hard it will stop the motor..   i looked at the cap.. could not see any misfiring when i moved the timing light around the various wires..  i don't know where my hand held automotive scope went..    i could not feel a LOT of play in the timing chain.. but there was a few degrees..   once i got it apart.. there was about 5/8 to 3/4" of slack in the chain..   the 98s do not use the timing chain tensioner...

warning...  be sure to set the crank and cam sprockets to the proper alignment before taking the chain off..   the balance shaft gear is just sitting on the cam shaft pin...  and will fall off...   you do NOT have to loosen the torx bolt on the  balance shaft...

the balance shaft GEARs have a pair of 0 marks to match up...  you will have to clean the face of the gears to see them...  

get this wrong;...  you are going to possibly have PrObLeMs wItH vIbRatiOns..   but its easy to get it right..


you are supposed to drop the pan slightly to get the timing cover off...

yea.. sure...  i ripped it right off...  but the one piece pan gasket came with it...

to get the pan off...

disconnect the battery...  drain the pan.. undo the oil filter.. take a T40 and unscrew the oil cooler adaptor.. use a 14 to unscrew the oil cooler line bolt...

drop the starter...  take out the 2, 10mm headed screws that hold the converter dust shield in place...    take out the oil cooler line holder bolt at the front of pan rail.. take the transmission cooler line bolt out near the middle of the pan...

pull the big rubber plugs... there is a 13MM flanged nut straight up that holds the back of the pan to the back of the block..  think .. 13MM socket on a 12 inch extension..

there are 10 more pan bolts... all 13mm wrench size..  you will need a flex end extension...   once the pan is loose it will slide toward the passenger side slightly and then drop down..  

when installing the pan with the one piece pan gasket..  you have to position the crank shaft with the first rod throw down.. so it will slide through.  the counter weights are to wide ...

if you have jacked the van up far enough.. i found the best place was with 6 ton jack stands.. on either side of the idler arms...  so you can slide right up through the middle..


the pump does not have to drop.. but its a good idea to replace it.. probably with a melling m 155 or M155HV .. but use a new screen..  and an IS-55E with the steel collar..


when i swapped in the new injectors i also put a new coil as the old one that was about 2 years old was leaking high voltage...


but .. even with all this done it still ran bad... i swapped on a new cam sensor.. when i had the distributer out to prime the oil pump...  still ran bad...

the only thing that i had not changed.. was the distributer cap...

so take a change.. swap that and the rotor first.. before swapping all the injectors and stuff..   you might just save your self a LOT of work..

this van has 244K on it.. so everything was really worn..

i typed this on the fly... with lots of people calling and stuff going on here so my concentration was broken about a dozen times...

its not as bad as it looks... actually quite easy.. if you take your time and don't cuss it out..    so easy.. i was thinking.. that perhaps.. i should find a shop with a lift and open an astro van only shop...

big blue bricks...



list of parts changed...

spark plugs and wires..   they were bad.. very bad...

ignition coil...   leaking high voltage...

the rotor and cap were changed a few months ago and looked good..

the injector spider and plenum gaskets...


the timing chain and gears...

the oil pump  , screen and intermediate shaft..

the pan gasket and oil cooler gaskets..

the cam sensor...

the distributer cap fixed the problem...

runs as smooth as new...

[taxpyer]

Wayne,,,,,,,,,,, Boy,, your last posting explaining your repair sent a familiar shiver down my spine.    My van with the new motor is running great! thank god..... and my knuckles have finally healed.......
When I pulled my distributor, getting the old block ready to send out, I absent mindedly turned the drive gear and realised that it was virtually seized.  The old motor actually ran fine but with a knock (main bearings, I think with a new belt tensioner I bet I could've ran it another 10,000)  :oops:  Anyways upon closer inspection the dist shaft was all gummy, nothing was scored or anything just covered with old oil residue that was sort of gummy. The motor only had 160,000 km on it. We cleaned it all up and lubed it well and all is good.   Does the oil needed for the distributor just splash around off the cam gear to lube the distributor shaft? Just wondering................................. :? never really thought about it till now...........

[UGLY OLDS]

My Turn ....
Cap / Rotor / Wires / Plugs were first on my list ... No changin' the plugs from the wheel house either ...This is AWD.. There is no room between the bottom of the body rail & the top of the frame rail to navigate to the plugs ... You can't even SEE them from there ... :cry:  Put all the rubber skirting back in place &  Ya move stuff out of the way as needed, stick your size 12 arms in there and change 'em...  Oh,and the broken little plastic clip thingie's tear up your hands & arms like you would not believe ...
 Plugs / cap / rotor / wires all in ...( Including the coil wire that arc'ed through the little vaccume hose ...Strange..Vacume leak & "blue flash..Together ... :? )   Feelin' pretty proud ...Started it up ...Worse than before ... :evil:   Pulled the plenum after verifying the fuel pressure loss...
WOW ...Nice & SHINEY clean  :!:  :!:   The fuel pressure regulator was blown & washing down the right side & , Are You Ready??    The plastic fuel return line had been rubbed through by 2 of the little plastic injector lines...AND vice -versa.....So we got over 60PSI fuel pressure blowing out the regulator side & whatever was left over dumping out the plastic return line , and every time the injector would fire , it would squirt out of the little plastic lines going to the poppets on the left side ... And the dumb thing RAN  :!:   I found  some real serious pictures of the way it's SUPPOSED to fit ...The little plastic poppet lines go OVER the fuel intake & return lines ...NOT under like the last guy did ....  That way they clear the fuel lines & will not rub little holes in them ...     AAAARRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!

 While this is all torn down , I thought I would do the boss ( Mrs .Ugly) , a favor & try to resolve the inop A/C issue ...
Soo far ....Compressor ...Accumulator ...Condenser ..All leaking or junk ... Can I PLEASE go back to building street rods ?  This "Late Model Restoration" stuff is horrible   ...


Bob............

[taxpyer]

Ugly,
         God did I enjoy your post. :!:  I can TOTALLY relate.  You know it's a shame too, the vans are great but what a pain to do any major repairs on them.  Ya those plastic thingies for the plug wires were originally devices used in jungle warfare to cut up anyone who had the misfortune to touch them.
         You will enjoy your van when you're done and all healed up.
I know I am.

[UGLY OLDS]

You will enjoy your van when you're done and all healed up.
I know I am.

[/quote]

 HA   :!:    I can't even drive the dumb thing  :!:  :!:  :evil:   I moved the driver's seat back 4" when we bought it way back when & STILL cannot fit behind the wheel ..... :oops:   Besides ....I'm reminded that I have MY OWN car to drive .... :?  

Think I'll do somthin' easy after this one ....    I wonder if I can fit an Allison in my Oldsmobile  :?:    


Bob.............