A/C for my shop, page 3

[Crosley.In.AZ]

I received a bid today on adding the ductwork to my shop.  I bought a 5 ton heat pump 2 months ago and have been trying to find a contractor to install some exposed ductwork in the shop.

So far only one guy has shown up & today he threw out the bid to see if it would stick to the wall.

I am aware of the costs to be a licensed , insured contractor in the state of AZ. I acted as the general contractor on the construction of my shop & I used only licensed guys on the building.  I am not afraid to open my wallet , but I do it wisely ( I hope).

I posted a photo of the diagram he drew for the exposed ductwork.  This is round ductwork similar to what  you see in some of the 'industrial look' resturants , night clubs , etc.

It is not a complicated setup I am after in my opinion.  The ceiling is 13 feet high , so that has to be dealt with. The ductwork needs to be a bit large to keep the air flow up.  I have priced rental scaffolding , ladders , electric man-lifts.  This guy's bid has $900.00 in it for scaffolding rental.

His bid is 1 dollar short of 7,000.00 dollars for about 125 feet of ductwork & a pair of air returns. Near as I can figure he has everything in the bid at triple what it should be in real life & still make a good profit.

I am still looking, and it looks like I will do the install myself like I did on other items.

I need to find a local source for round ductwork & other parts / pieces.

[Bob Paulin]

Hey Cros:

That drawing looks similar to a self-contained unit that was described to me as a "Double-wide mobile home unit" which would do a pretty good job on my smallish (1400 sq. ft.) house for "....a couple grand plus the fiberglass ductwork."

Is there a particular name for that style of A/C?

I know that many central A/C home units use furnace ducting with what is called an "A" coil, but I have a hot water heating system, and was hoping to place a self-contained unit on a slab outside a fairly large cellar window, and run the ductwork through the cellar - with floor registers.

When asking around, what do I call that particular style of self-contained, stand-alone A/C unit?

And, I know I've got it tucked away someplace - either in "Bob's Big Book of Stuff" or "Bob's Dynamic Desktop Array of Stuff",  but can you tell me how many BTUs equal one ton?


Thanks!

Bob Paulin

[Leon]

This guy's bid has $900.00 in it for scaffolding rental.

I had a similar thing with the guy that did the drywall in the main bay of my shop.  He complained that since my ceiling was 16' he would have to rent scaffolding to do the job.  I told him if he wanted the job that was his responsibility.  He took the scaffolding price off the bid and did the ceiling in 2 days (rather than a week he was telling me it would take if I paid for the scaffold).  One thing you may try is to look for some workers at a job that are doing that type of work and see if they want to make some money on weekends or evenings.

[58 Yeoman]

Tony, it doesn't sound like it would be a hard job, if you knew the sizes, etc. of ducting that you need, and could find it to buy on your own. I know the feeling on the prices they shoot at you.  I had estimates from $12k to $20k to install 21 replacement windows in my 68 year old house; I bought the windows myself at Menards and did it for around $2500. But, of course, that was only for 16 windows, I kept the 5 smaller ones.  I guess it would've cost me the whole amount if I had changed them, too.  

Bob, I believe that one ton of ac is 12,000 btu's.

[Sean]

Tony, I am a Sheetmetal Worker, and although I am on the Custom Fabrication end of things, my Company makes most of their money on HVAC. We have guys that do houses on the side and the standard rate is from 5 to 6 thousand for an entire house, including the cost and installation of the units. There really isn't much to it, even using S&D Duct.

The ductwork you have drawn would take less than a day to install, and spiral duct is cheap and easy. Either this guy is just flat-out trying to Rape you, or prices are completely out of control in AZ....

That may be the case though. I have an Aunt in Phoenix that manages a restaurant. She said the Stainless repair guys get $120 an hour out there. My company charges $55 an hour....

[phat46]

That really looks like an easy one day job to me with everything out in the open. I used to do heating/cooling work many years ago. We only used the square duct work with round pipes coming off it for the "runs". The round duct can't be any more difficult to install.  I'm sure that you could do this yourself, and I have to guess that you could probably do it for way less than that estimate, like mabye a quarter of it. If you can fix a mordern auto tranny you can put up ductwork.  

[Mikej]

I received a bid today on adding the ductwork to my shop.  I bought a 5 ton heat pump 2 months ago and have been trying to find a contractor to install some exposed ductwork in the shop.

So far only one guy has shown up & today he threw out the bid to see if it would stick to the wall.

I am aware of the costs to be a licensed , insured contractor in the state of AZ. I acted as the general contractor on the construction of my shop & I used only licensed guys on the building.  I am not afraid to open my wallet , but I do it wisely ( I hope).

I posted a photo of the diagram he drew for the exposed ductwork.  This is round ductwork similar to what  you see in some of the 'industrial look' resturants , night clubs , etc.

It is not a complicated setup I am after in my opinion.  The ceiling is 13 feet high , so that has to be dealt with. The ductwork needs to be a bit large to keep the air flow up.  I have priced rental scaffolding , ladders , electric man-lifts.  This guy's bid has $900.00 in it for scaffolding rental.

His bid is 1 dollar short of 7,000.00 dollars for about 125 feet of ductwork & a pair of air returns. Near as I can figure he has everything in the bid at triple what it should be in real life & still make a good profit.

I am still looking, and it looks like I will do the install myself like I did on other items.

I need to find a local source for round ductwork & other parts / pieces.

I could do it for that price. I have never been to Arizona and I could use a paid vacation.....

[40]

In my area...7K is about the average price for a total heating/cooling system completely installed in a 1500 sq ft house.Around here,all of the do-it-yourself lumber yards carry everything you would need...or...I'll come along with Mike to assist and we'll both have a nice vacation on your 7K

[phat46]

In my area...7K is about the average price for a total heating/cooling system completely installed in a 1500 sq ft house.Around here,all of the do-it-yourself lumber yards carry everything you would need...or...I'll come along with Mike to assist and we'll both have a nice vacation on your 7K

   Let the bidding war begin!!!!
  I'll do it $6,500 ( I'll even pay my own airfare)  

[jaybee]

They put air conditioning into the education/office wing of our church a while back.  Same round duct (heat is hot water) and high ceiling requiring scaffolding.  Complete with air conditioning unit, plumbing of refrigerant and condensate, wiring, cutting and patching concrete block walls, and a suspended ceiling in a hallway to conceal the ductwork the total bill was $23,000.  It's a pretty good sized wing, too.  He's trying to rip you off in my opinion.

[Sean]

high ceiling requiring scaffolding.

I hung Spiral duct in one of the Local "Chevy's" restaurants a while back, mostly by myself, and off of a 12' Step Ladder. I had a "Baker" Scaffold (wheels), but just used it to hold the Screwgun and snips.

The only time I needed anything more than the stepladder was when I had to go up above the rafters to attach the hangers. If you use the right kind of hangers you can do the whole thing by yourself, and you should only need one hanger every 8'-10', considering the small duct you will be using.

Spiral pipe butts together with a small collar, and if you screw the collar in the piece thats already hanging, its pretty easy to start the next piece as you climb the ladder. If you are near the middle of the piece as you raise it in place, its a simple matter to slip the open loop of a cable hanger over the pipe as you go too. All you have to do then is move back to the joint and put your screws in.

Here are the hangers you should use if you decided to try it by yourself. Thats the only reason I was able to hang the duct in that restaurant on my own. http://www.gripple.com/construction/apps_hvac.cfm You can also just use sheared 1" strips of 20g, but you have to have both hands free to do so, and its not adjustable for Level like the Cable hangers are.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

Hey Cros:
Is there a particular name for that style of A/C?


When asking around, what do I call that particular style of self-contained, stand-alone A/C unit?

Thanks!

Bob Paulin

======== the unit I bought is a packaged  heat pump. It heats and cools.

They are called packed units out here. Split units are separate evaporator and condensing units. THe evap unit is inside the area to be cooled and the condensing unit is outside with copper lines connecting them.

You guys are correct , here in AZ we are under the gun from contractors.  With the massive amount of construction / growth going on they can name their price to see if you take it.

I need to make some calls next week to find a supplier of spiral duct parts & pieces.

The biggest deal is the duct work that passes through the exterior wall from the unit, then turns up towards the ceiling where the sprial ducts will be.  I am not sure how I will build that part ... yet

The only reason I would use an insulated metal duct is cut the noise down.

[Bruce Dorsi]

...which would do a pretty good job on my smallish (1400 sq. ft.) house for "....a couple grand plus the fiberglass ductwork."

I have a hot water heating system, and was hoping to place a self-contained unit on a slab outside a fairly large cellar window, and run the ductwork through the cellar - with floor registers.

--------------------------------
Bob, there is a system made by Sanyo which may have merit for you.

....It's a split system with the condenser outside.

....One or more wall "units" are installed inside.  These have a circulating fan and a refrigeration coil in them.  

....NO ductwork is required.

....I've seen these systems installed in several small commercial buildings, and their owners were pleased with them.

....Perhaps some RRT'ers can tell you more about them.

[Bob Paulin]

======== the unit I bought is a packaged  heat pump. It heats and cools.

They are called packed units out here. Split units are separate evaporator and condensing units. THe evap unit is inside the area to be cooled and the condensing unit is outside with copper lines connecting them.

You guys are correct , here in AZ we are under the gun from contractors.  With the massive amount of construction / growth going on they can name their price to see if you take it.

I need to make some calls next week to find a supplier of spiral duct parts & pieces.

The biggest deal is the duct work that passes through the exterior wall from the unit, then turns up towards the ceiling where the sprial ducts will be.  I am not sure how I will build that part ... yet

The only reason I would use an insulated metal duct is cut the noise down.

Tony and Bruce:

Thanks for the answers.

I spent Sunday afternoon at Google University, and came away understanding a lot more than I know about it!?!?

On the web sites I visited, they are called "packaged units" as you said, but I would buy a packaged unit that is A/C only. I would hate to use electricity to try and heat my house in Maine with a heat pump - even as auxiliary heat.

It looks as though two,  to two-and-one-half tons will do my house comfortably in Maine, and operating cost estimates for the better of the two energy-efficiency numbers (12 seer) are approximately $200/year.....not too bad.

Now, I have to decide if these systems are reliable enough to order one over the 'Net, or if I should spend a couple hundred more and buy through a local supplier.

When I say "couple hundred more", I am including the price and the shipping charges from the mail-order companies, versus the back-your-pickup-up-to-the-door" price at the local supplier.

I recognize trade names such as Lenox and Rheem, and would probably prefer to go with a well-established company.

And, Bruce, while that Sanyo system looks nice, you're talking some serious refrigerant plumbing - and additional opportunities for refrigerant leakage - between the condenser and the remote evaporators.

There is probably the advantage of "zonuing" the cooling, but my house is only 1400 square feet, so I can probably handle all the "zoning" needs by shutting off the registers and closing the doors to unused rooms such as the spare bedroom, opening them back up when we have company.

I'm sure there are perfect applications for such a system, but I believe I would rather have it all self-contained in a single unit outside, and install ductwork in the house. (I have a full basement under the entire house with seven-foot ceilings.) When the unit goes bad, simply buy another and hook it up to the existing ductwork.

Anybody have any other suggestions?

Thanks for all the help!

Bob Paulin

[Crosley.In.AZ]

On the web sites I visited, they are called "packaged units" as you said, but I would buy a packaged unit that is A/C only. I would hate to use electricity to try and heat my house in Maine with a heat pump - even as auxiliary heat.


Bob Paulin

true, heat pumps work best in mild winter areas of the country. Usually AZ has mild winters in many parts of the state.