Water in cylinder

[Okiedokie]

Should have posted this as new instead of reply to my previous post.

Posted: Fri, Mar 12 2010, 1:08 pm    Post subject:    

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Well, my attempt to fire my TPI crate motor continues to stumble. After successfully replacing the intake gasket I discovered water in cyl # 5. The engine had still not been fired for the first time. I pressurized the cooling system to check for leaks and found none, prepped the engine for starting, and attempted to start. Cranked abnormally, so I checked timing [found to be ok] and tried again. Not good, seemed to almost lock up. I started pulling plugs to see what cranking without plugs in was like, got to #5 hole and water poured out. I have now pulled that head expecting to see something odd with the gasket or head. Don't see it. This is a Jon Barrett crate motor, 330 HP, with World Product SR heads. Since Jon is out of business, I can't question him, so once again I am looking for some input from you all. Joe

[Okiedokie]

Thought I had this figured out when I noticed rust stains around the head gasket. Maybe it was just not properly torqed, but if that was true why no sign of water in the other holes? Picture attached, I hope.

[enjenjo]

I believe I would have the head pressure tested.

[kb426]

I agree with Frank.

[Okiedokie]

So you think that this brand new World Products S/R head my be cracked?

[Fat Cat]

I would not discount a crack in the cylinder wall either hidden by the cross hatching of the hone job.

[kb426]

Not cracked, casting flaw. All part of the diagnostic procedure. You have to eliminate the items one by one. If the deck surfaces are straight, you would check for proper torquing of the heads. If that was done before you got the engine, you can only see if the bolts are tight. If you check the head, you have one less variable. Good luck and be patient.

[Okiedokie]

Thanks all. I will have it pressure tested. It is a new/never fired engine, not a rebuild. Go figure.

[purplepickup]

It looks like you're using plain water from the rust I see.  You should be able to see a witness mark (rust or discoloration) if coolant is leaking around the gasket due to warped head or deck, or improperly torqued head.  

You say a lot of water came out of the cylinder when you took the plug out.  You  might want to check, using a dial indicator, to make sure #5 piston TDC is the same as the others.  Water doesn't compress and it doesn't take much to bend a rod.  I know because I've done it.

I've also had a cracked block on a fairly new crate motor due to a casting imperfection.

[wayne petty]

do you have a BEAM type torque wrench?    can you check the torque on the other head...     check half of the long and short bolts...  if any are not properly torqued..  then check the break away torque of the unchecked bolts..   this can only be done with a beam type of torque wrench...



i would really want you to pull the other head..   in looking at that head gasket.. that head was not properly torqued..  perhaps someone got called away...  and forgot...   or the torque wrench was out of calibration..


~~~~~~~~~~~

when i worked at the first engine rebuilder.. a long open shop...  some employees had been there almost 30 years..   there were problems with head gasket failures...  like above..    i threw a 15 mm 12 point socket on my almost new craftsman torque wrench..  some of the torque wrenches were 20 pounds low at 65 foot pounds on the scale..    so heads were only being torqued to 45 or so..   others were only 10 pounds off.. at 65...

but every one was off..    i got the boss to let me buy a torque wrench tester from mc master...   i got it up on a post in the assembly department .. the builders were told by the boss to use this to set their torque wrenches with it...    a few hours later.. they had taken it down..   carried it to my desk and threw it at me.. telling me how is was incorrect.. as each torque wrench read differently on it..  and they had these torque wrenches for decades..   i had found some of their torque wrenches set at 110 foot pounds on monday mornings  before anybody else got there..

i worry that your piston rings may also have gotten water damage..

i also worry about water and rust damage to the oil pump and pick up tube... when you drop the pan to check for rust in the various steel items there.. take a look up at the cam lobes..    do you see any rust there...

and please...  stop by a radio shack.. pick up a pair of the biggest supermagnets you can afford and stick them in the inside of the pan...  so ANY rust gets pulled out of the oil and stuck to the magnets forever.. instead of getting circulated through the oil system...   remember the oil filter bypasses when the oil is cold..  unless you put a solid plug in the hole where the plastic disc and spring is in the adaptor..

i would also like you to find some HYLOMAR someware.. and use it on the new head gaskets...

but i also want you to run a bottoming tap into the head bolt holes.. make sure they are totally clean to the bottom..  if you engine is on a stand.. lean it over to the deck surface is vertical.. this way.. no metal fragments can fall into the motor..

screw in some head bolts without the head...  bottom them in the holes.. give them a light coat of spray paint..   let it dry.. then unscrew them.. stick them through the head...  see if you can see any paint when they stick through the deck side of the head..    

head bolts bottoming out in the head bolts holes in dirt, rust or old sealer.. can stop the bolts from achieving proper clamping force on the head gasket even through they seem to pull up to torque..

when torquing heads...  and everything else.. i also pull torque in stages...

and keep track of how much turn each bolt takes to get to the next setting.. if i find one that does not move the same as the others ...  i stop there and take it all apart...  find out why..

so on chevy heads.. i usually start at 35 foot pounds then go to 45..  then 60 .. and finally 65...

and for drag racers who attend national events..  be sure to stop by the ARP trailer.. they have a torque wrench tester... bring your torque settings you normally use...   this way they can test your torque wrench at those settings.. if it is off.. they should be able to put a Ptouch label to say ..  for 65 foot pounds.. set wrench to  68..  this way.. you at least know that your most used race settings are accurate..


one last thing.. what is the fel pro part number stamped into the fel pro performance head gasket..   there are some with wire rings in the fire ring around the cylinders that might need something special done..

[Okiedokie]

Thanks for the helpfull info Wayne and Purplepickup, I do have a beam type wrench and will check the other head for proper torque. I will also determine TDC on # 5 compared to others. The water had been in the motor for less than  two weeks, used distilled water intead of anti freeze mix to save cleaning up antifreeze if had a leak. In hindsight it seems not so smart. The motor is in my 40, not on a stand. I will use all your helpfull info to decide next step. Joe

[wayne petty]

check the height below the deck the piston comes up to... the measurement of the highest point..

if that rod is bent compared to the others..  or the piston is damaged.. it will be several thousands down...  or more..   when compared to the others..


you may have to do it with the other head off to check number six...  as the stroke on that would be the same but the deck heights could be off a few thousands...  

so compare them all..  if only number 5 is down... time to discuss taking it apart for an inspection...

oh... i also use the 10 in one hyde painters tools as a gasket surface scraper
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/c0/c0f6ddae-5ad3-41a3-8ded-482a149640cd_300.jpg

under 10 bucks at home depot.. thick blade.. steel cap so you can tap it with a hammer to use it as a cutting tool... i have used mine to cut sheet metal sections out at the junk yard..    i also carry a diamond file with it to keep it razor sharp.. and the edge of the blade knick free so i can scrape even aluminum parts without digging into the surface...

[GPster]

This is all a scary deal to me. I have an '85 4.3 V6 that I happened on to strangely. It had been left in a garage on an eviction deal. It looked like a guy was planning to put it in a '92 S10 blazer because it was a 4.3L but the early and later V6s had different characteristics (Vortex?). when I looked it it it had water in one cylinder and you could see it was improper torqueing of the cylinder heads. but the shortblock was a new .030 over deal. Did he buy a shortbloc and try to use other heads or was it wrong from some rebuilder. I put it back together properly and converted it to a non-computor engine and had it running. Didn't have any new water problems but I ran it with a radiator without a pressure cap. This engine was free but I would only use it if I built something around it. Do I invest time into putting it into a chassis and running it again properly or do I just take a chance? GPster

[Okiedokie]

Wayne, you asked about Felpro #, it is 7733PT2. As I was looking for the number I discovered the object in the #3 cyl, I had not noticed it before because I was focused on the water leak. It is obviously a stand from a wire brush wheel.  I have attached a picture, I stood the item on its end for viewing. in the earlier picture it can be seen laying on it's side on the piston. I have had nothing of that nature around the motor, it has to have been there from assembly. The torque on the other side head bolts all test at 60 Lbs with a beam style wrench. I think that the only prudent thing to do is pull this motor and completely dissassemble and re-assemble. Discusting, beginning to see why Barrett went under. I will probably look for another crate motor, I am ready to get my 40 on the road. Any suggestions for another crate 350, 330 HP is good range for me. Joe

[Okiedokie]

Forgot to resize. Here they are.