Changes in oils ( reduced ZDDP) ????

Topsterguy · February 06, 2008, 10:47:23 PM

I read in Street Rodder that the oil companies have been forced to reduce the amount of "anti wear compound" called ZDDP or zinc dialkyldithiophosphate ( Whoa!!!) in automotive oils, and that this "could" cause premature wear on the lifters and cams in older engines - in particular the ones that use flat tappet cams. They say that the coating that this stuff puts on these parts isn't there now and that could cause wear. Anyone know anything about this? Sounds like serious * to me!!!!

Fat Cat · February 06, 2008, 11:41:17 PM

Quote from: "Topsterguy"Anyone know anything about this?

Just what I read on here over the last year or so.

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4657
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5404
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6739
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7713

Ed ke6bnl · February 07, 2008, 07:46:37 AM

still recommended is rotella t and I use walmart cl-4 oil in my diesel I believe these have more of the zinc then others

Jbird · February 07, 2008, 02:18:29 PM

[quote Sounds like serious #### to me!!!!

[/quote] It is quite serious, especially on a new flat tappet cam during break in. I lost 14 out of 16 lobes and lifters on a 427BBC I built a couple a years ago. I used mollybeedenium mixed with that red stuff Edelbrock included in the performer cam kit as assy lube, cause I knew it was gonna be a few months afore I fired it and I didn't want the assy lube sliding offin the cam & lifters. When I fired it everything was fine and sounding good during the 20 minutes of cam break in. after I brought the engine back to a 650 rpm idle things started sounding funny and the idle got pukey. I thought it was a carb problem and kept running it while I tried adjusting the new Holley 850. Then it began popping back through the carb so I figured the ignition was the problem. I went all through that system again, no problems there. I played with it for about an hour and a half as it got worse. I couldn't even imagine a new Edelbrock performer cam, lifter and spring setup going south, then I saw the new bottle of GM EOS sitting on the bench, instead of empty and in the drainer. I started using an EOS mix as assy lube and a 16oz bottle of pure EOS as a break in additive when GM first recommended it for their crate engines years ago. When I realized what had happened I shut it down and yanked the cam out, two lobes & lifters had an almost perfect break in wear pattern. The other 14 were cupped and rounded off worse than any I recall seeing, the oil filter weighed a ton.
Before I began using EOS I used molyb as cam & lifter lube and Castrol GTX as break in oil & I never had a cam failure. The only thing I can figure caused the 427 failure, besides my forgeting the EOS, is the lack of ZDDP in the break in oil. I Put a cheap Summit cam & lifter kit with matching springs in the 427 and everything is fine a year later. Jbird

Topsterguy · February 07, 2008, 07:39:01 PM

I sent an email to Castrol about it and this is what I got back today.

Thank you for contacting Castrol,

We apologize for the confusion, please see below information regarding the ZDDP levels.

The latest API SM/ILSAC GF-4 category calls for reduced Zinc and Phosphorus levels to allow extended catalyst life in current model vehicles. There appear to be field issues associated with the SM/GF-4 oil's level of antiwear in the classic car engines known as flat tappet cam engines. The current late model passenger car engines are not flat tappet cam engines and have no reported field issues related to the level of antiwear chemistry in the SM/GF-4 oils.

Product Recommendations for Flat Tappet (Solid Lifter) Cam Engines:

Castrol Syntec 5W-40 (min Zn = 0.10 wt % = 1000 ppm)(full synthetic)

Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (Recent reformulation identified by "Recommended for Classic Cars" text on back label) (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm)(full synthetic) PREFERRED

Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (BMW dealerships) (min Zn = 0.10 = 1000 ppm)(full synthetic)

BMW Long Life 5W-30 (BMW dealerships)(min Zn = 0.095 = 950 ppm)(full synthetic)

Castrol Consumer Relations

bowtietillidie · February 08, 2008, 09:27:05 AM

I have followed this topic with interest and other places on the internet.
I have one question...... What we are supposed to do when you start up a
rebuilt Flat Tappet Engine. Synthenic oils are not recommended during
break in. The only thing I have found to use during break in is GM's
OES supplement. At 5.00 a pint, I use two pints . My customers are
screaming High price. I know someone is going to say there are other
oils that have zddp in them . With advertising honesty the way it is
today should one just take their word. And go ahead and use... say Shell
Rotella. As an after thought why do diesels need zddp more than gas
engines . Diesels turn way less RPM , all the diesels that I can remember
working on had roller tappet cams valve spring pressure is way less than
just about any good late model or street rod engine. Sooooo why do
diesels need this additive more than gasoline engines
:?

Uncle Bob · February 08, 2008, 10:16:18 AM

The answer is in the Castrol reply copied above. You're inadvertently looking at the issue backward. It isn't so much the diesel "needs" the ZDDP as much as they don't widely have cat converters.........yet. The ZDDP has been around since the '30s, is well known technology, and as a result is relatively inexpensive. The newer e.p. technologies are not by comparison. However, from what I've been reading the diesel oils are due for a formulation change as well (as their emissions become more constrained by mandate)in the not too distant future.............if it hasn't happened already.

tom36 · February 08, 2008, 12:27:09 PM

I don't know anything about this stuff, but for what it's worth
http://www.zddplus.com/ Tom...

unklian · February 08, 2008, 02:24:50 PM

Brad Penn oil is supposed to be good.

LN Engineering has done a lot of testing on new oils.
Should have info on their site.

enjenjo · February 08, 2008, 04:09:43 PM

QuoteHowever, from what I've been reading the diesel oils are due for a formulation change as well (as their emissions become more constrained by mandate)in the not too distant future.............if it hasn't happened already.

It has happened, the level of ZDDP in truck oils has dropped a bunch in the last year, because many trucks now have catalyic converters on them.

unklian · February 08, 2008, 11:51:34 PM

Quote from: "unklian"Brad Penn oil is supposed to be good.

LN Engineering has done a lot of testing on new oils.
Should have info on their site.

http://lnengineering.blogspot.com/

bowtietillidie · February 09, 2008, 08:22:48 AM

The lnengineering blog has the info I have been looking for .

thanks Unlian

Ed ke6bnl · February 09, 2008, 10:47:12 AM

Quote from: "enjenjo"
QuoteHowever, from what I've been reading the diesel oils are due for a formulation change as well (as their emissions become more constrained by mandate)in the not too distant future.............if it hasn't happened already.

It has happened, the level of ZDDP in truck oils has dropped a bunch in the last year, because many trucks now have catalyic converters on them.

I believe it is because of the exhaust particulate filter, and maybe the cats as well Ed

Topsterguy · February 16, 2008, 10:00:50 PM

It seems from a lot I've talked to that the EOS additive from GM is the stuff to use, and if you add it once you don't need to for quite awhile apparently. Thanks for all the info on this!

unklian · February 16, 2008, 11:01:46 PM

EOS was pulled from the market last year and reformulated.

It is available again,no word on how much the formula was changed.