Lowering, Bagging and Air Suspension

msuguydon · December 12, 2006, 09:45:32 AM

Another set of questions from the "new to hot rod" ownership Guy.

Let's just say that I have this friend that has a 4-dr, full-size, late 50's Sedan, assume GM product.

Just for giggles, let's say that this friend wants his car to sit lower to the ground, so it would be "cool" like the other guys cars and not a "lame" more door. What would be my (I mean my friend's) options?

1) Bagging, does this mean, removing the springs and replacing with a air bag? Does this allow for changes in how high or low the car sits to the ground. How does this improve or negatively effect the cars ride or drivability.

2) Lowering, removing the body from the frame and re-attaching the body so that it overlaps the frame, making the body sit closer to the ground.

3) Cutting the springs, taking some height out of the springs, again changing the stance of the car.

4) Air Ride, is this the same as bagging?

5) Hydraulics, I assume this is what the lower riders use and probably I don't want to go there.

Please when replying, go into a little more depth, my friend :oops: is new to all of this stuff.

enjenjo · December 12, 2006, 10:37:56 AM

Lowering a 4 door can be tricky, because being a 4 door, it may just look like a broken 4 door.

how you do it depends on how low you want to go. If you are only looking for an inch or two, with coil springs all the way around, you can use shorter springs, and in some cases shocks. There are several vendors that make lowering springs for your car, they are a relative cheap and easy way to go. Done right, the ride should be as good, if not better than stock. Cutting springs may be a possibility too, but cutting a spring increases the spring rate, and may give a rough ride. Some springs can't be cut, because of the configuation of the ends, IE. pigtailed springs, which depends on the end shape to hold them in place. Once shorter springs are installed, the shocks may bottom out on bumps, which makes for a rough ride, and can cause damage to the shocks or mounting points. If you can find one, a shorter shock can be used, or the mounting points can be modified to give enough travel. In most cases you can take it back to stock with little work. It can usually be gone for less than $1000

Air Ride, or "bagging" a car can be used to lower it, a sophisticated system is adjustable within the range of the air spring mounting points. If done right, it will ride good. There are a couple down sides to air ride though, number one, a proper system can be expensive to build, requiring moving of shock mounting, modifications to the control arms and frame, and once installed, it's hard to go back. A good air ride system is in the $2000 to $3000 range.

Hydraulics are similar in installation to air ride, but require even more modification. In essence you install a hydraulic cylinder over each spring, after cutting the spring , usually using only half of the spring, or less. This increases the spring rate greatly, making for a rough ride. In most cases, the shocks are removed completely, making the car bounce a lot. A hydraulic system can be done that will maintain a decent ride, but at the expense of adjustability. A hydraulic system costs about $2000 and up, and may go as high as $5000. It also adds about 500 lbs to the weight of the car.

Lowering by moving the body down over the wheels is called channeling. This is done by cutting the entire floor out of the car, and reinstalling it in a higher position, thus lowering the body permantly. There is usually no modification necessary to the chassis, other than steering column modifications, so it will ride as well as stock, but there may be extensive modifications required to the body to make things work. Seats, pedals, and other parts may have to be modified too. Cost can range up to $20,000 to do one right.

You make your choice.

sirstude · December 12, 2006, 10:54:29 AM

1 and 4 are the same thing. 4 is a trade name. As is almost always the case, how much does he want to spend.

2 is a huge amount of work, even more from 59 to 64 on the GM's because of the "X" frame setup.

3 is cheap, but not usually the best method, you lose suspension travel permanently.

The hydraulic method is, I think, pretty expensive, and you loose ride quality because you cut the spring down a LOT to allow the cylinder to fit in.

My personal opinion is to go with air bags. That is what many of the current luxury cars now run. In my Olds I have installed bags with the "'LevelPro" system from Air Ride Technologies. This system allows you to set a permanent ride height so that you can align the car and it will always be at that level. You can set 2 more presets, the common ones are "fairgrounds mode" where you are just off the bump stops, and "Speed Bump Mode" where you lift it up for extra clearance. You can also let all the air out to park. Everyone who I know running air really likes the ride quality. I think AirRide makes a kit for the late 50's GM's.

Hope this helps
Doug

Here is AirRides web site:

http://www.airride.com/

GPster · December 12, 2006, 11:17:11 AM

All of Enjenjo's comments are correct but I would like to add something about the look. Because your rear suspension is on coils one of the things I have noticed is when you lower them a lot the wheels don't appear to be in the center of the wheel opening. With the additional door edges right near the rear wheel openings that might add to the broken look. Some times people go buy the numbers and will state 4" or 5" and the look means less than the numbers. You can do some with the 45 series tires but if you want to measure by the height of "Lucky Strike" packs put a set of side pipes on it. That will lower the bottom of the body line closer to the ground. '58 was the first year for Chevrolet with coils all around and it was a one year only body style. They rode decent and they have a unigue style and you really don't need to compete with an other '58 except maybe how far you drove without any trouble. GPster

msuguydon · December 15, 2006, 11:23:16 AM

Enjenjo and Others:

Thanks for all of the information. I really appreciated it when you take the time to give me the pros and cons of modifications so I can make a more educated decision as to how I can/should proceed.

What I need to do is get the basics completed this winter, like finishing the interior, getting the exterior trim pieces purchased and installed, add seat belts and heat. Then enjoy my car this summer and go to some shows and other gatherings and learn more, decide what I like or don't like before I plow forward with any major mods.

Thanks Again

Rayvyn · December 15, 2006, 12:47:18 PM

If it was me, I wouldn't bother. From what I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the way it sits. So what if it's a "plain old" 4 door? It's a nice looking, head turning hot rod that's going to get noticed no matter what.

99% of the people who are going to see it will appreciate it, and won't know channeled from chopped or bagged from lowered anyway, So why spend all that time, effort and money trying to appease the 1% who deemed it "cool" to slam a car on the ground?

If YOU want it that way because of your own personal tastes, then have at it brother. Just don't go tearing the thing apart just to please others so you'll feel "accepted". Also, the more time you spend tearing it apart and working on it, is that much less time you are driving it.

I always considered the movers and shakers of the hot rod world as the ones who didn't conform to everyone's standards, but dared to do things different, so others could copy them.

There's too may sheep in the hobby now-a-days, and not enough Shepards.

IMHO...

river1 · December 15, 2006, 06:53:05 PM

Quote from: "Rayvyn"There's too may sheep in the hobby now-a-days, and not enough Shepards.

IMHO...

which makes vance a VERY happy man. :?

later jim

Rayvyn · December 15, 2006, 10:19:59 PM

Quote from: "river1"
Quote from: "Rayvyn"There's too may sheep in the hobby now-a-days, and not enough Shepards.

IMHO...

which makes vance a VERY happy man. :?

later jim

msuguydon · December 16, 2006, 09:46:38 AM

Quote from: "Rayvyn"If it was me, I wouldn't bother. From what I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the way it sits. So what if it's a "plain old" 4 door? It's a nice looking, head turning hot rod that's going to get noticed no matter what.

99% of the people who are going to see it will appreciate it, and won't know channeled from chopped or bagged from lowered anyway, So why spend all that time, effort and money trying to appease the 1% who deemed it "cool" to slam a car on the ground?

If YOU want it that way because of your own personal tastes, then have at it brother. Just don't go tearing the thing apart just to please others so you'll feel "accepted". Also, the more time you spend tearing it apart and working on it, is that much less time you are driving it.

I always considered the movers and shakers of the hot rod world as the ones who didn't conform to everyone's standards, but dared to do things different, so others could copy them.

There's too may sheep in the hobby now-a-days, and not enough Shepards.

IMHO...

Thanks for the comments, although I think myself a person who is very comfortable and confident in my own skin, it is nice to get some reinforcement, its not about fitting in or complying, its about personal taste and style.

As for the whole sheep scene, :-} aaaa to each his own