Giving up on the EFI project

32 Chevy · July 12, 2005, 01:10:04 AM

Well, about 3 months ago I decided that I needed to join the new generation and install an EFI 5.0 H.O. engine in the 56 Ranchwagon. And I was gonna do it by myself, to learn abut fuel injection. Boy, did I learn a lot.....

I learned that now, after lots 'O money, busted knuckles, and no spark to the distributor no matter what I or the eventual last resort paid experts did, the trusty 4 bbl is going back on. Heck, summer is here and I wanna drive it, not cuss at it.

But I've got such a stubborn streak that maybe next year I'll try it again. Sheesh.

Dave R.

choco · July 12, 2005, 03:50:09 AM

Quote from: "32 Chevy"Well, about 3 months ago I decided that I needed to join the new generation and install an EFI 5.0 H.O. engine in the 56 Ranchwagon. And I was gonna do it by myself, to learn abut fuel injection. Boy, did I learn a lot.....

I learned that now, after lots 'O money, busted knuckles, and no spark to the distributor no matter what I or the eventual last resort paid experts did, the trusty 4 bbl is going back on. Heck, summer is here and I wanna drive it, not cuss at it.

But I've got such a stubborn streak that maybe next year I'll try it again. Sheesh.

Dave R.

Dave, when I first got a glimpse of how EFI worked, I was hooked. But I have to agree, it is a steep learning curve. I wrote a book on the subject, and I wrote it with guys like you in mind. It explains Electronic Engine Management in Hot Rod language and describes how you can make it work by explaining how it works.
I'd give you a free copy, but then I wouldn't get my $1 royalty.

BFS57 · July 12, 2005, 02:26:24 PM

Hello!

I'm right in the middle of this subject! I recently purchased a 350 completely re-built with an '85 tpi set up for it. I knew this would take some time to do EVERYTHING so I planned my install in "stages".
First, out with the old and in with the new. Then I placed all the intake and so related items from my old motor on the new motor (shouldn't have done that, got gremlins). This set up was connected to a "supposed" rebuilt 700r4. Well, to make a long storey short, the trans is a piece of junk! The motor runs really nice though but I can only use 1-3rd gear and reverse, no 4th gear!
Next, I am sorting out all the TPI stuff. Wiring harness, ECM, and a complete serpentine system.
I have read all kinds of articles, books, web sites, ect and they are all good, but somehow, I feel like I'm trying to communicate with beings from anothet planet!
I still plan to do this but I have a feeling it will take a long time to get it all to a point where it can be put in and have running, the way it should.
I'm just going to start with the next thing on my list and go from there. Next up, rams Horn exhaust! Then the serpentine system, meanwhile back at the ranch, I will be reading my mind expanding manuals for "missing links" in this saga of TPI.
So don't feel alone in the quest to go "where no man has gone before" because some guys have gone there and it's just around the mind bogling corner!

Bruce

32 Chevy · July 12, 2005, 04:13:13 PM

Choco,

Hey, thanks for your reply. I have purchased several books about the EFI subject and some are quite helpful, others could be written in greek. But I don't have your book... do you have one that specifically addresses the Ford 5.0 system?

Dave R.

Crafty · July 12, 2005, 06:03:49 PM

Im converting a late 70s SBC to TPI spec, but Im kinda making it harder on myself as the stuff I originally bought is a MAF setup and I'm going with speed density, which means a different ECM and the wiring is different.
I've messed with fuel injection stuff on modern engines and have a pretty good understanding of how, what and why so I'm hope that will help me out.

Remember its still an engine, its still gotta suck squeeze bang blow.

I'm not too familiar with the ford systems, but try looking at a few mustang etc websites, the thirdgen.org site has a massive amount of information in their forums for the TPI and TBI systems.

Found two books aimed at ford fuel injection
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0837603013/qid=1121205620/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-8352216-9205433?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

and

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/076030503X/qid=1121205620/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_ur_2/103-8352216-9205433?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I'd guess the first one would be better for what you need.

If you don't have a spark work through the components one by one - never assume that anything works properly until its proven!

enjenjo · July 12, 2005, 06:57:45 PM

One thing that may be causing you problems, most late model stuff has a VATS system. Vehicle Anti Theft System. Until that is satisfied, the car won't start. There are several ways to get around it, depending on what type of system is used,but you may have to go to the aftermarket to get the parts.

As Choco said, the learning curve is steep, but fortunately, what you learn on one brand can mostly be applied to another.

jaybee · July 12, 2005, 08:25:42 PM

Quote from: "Crafty"If you don't have a spark work through the components one by one - never assume that anything works properly until its proven!

There is so much truth to this and yet so hard to do. One of my friends is a Ford line mechanic. Recently he was working at home on a Chevy Blazer that would fire but then quit as soon as he released the key. Within a few minutes of starting the project he noticed that the fuel pump wiring had been spliced, but after confirming that the thing had power he went on to everything else. Eventually he found himself totally lost and confused and attempted to solve the problem by going back to basics:

"What was done last?"
"What doesn't look as expected?"

Yes, it was the fuel pump wiring. He knew it was getting power and generating fuel pressure, but because the stock wiring was bypassed the computer thought the pump was dead. With a "dead" fuel pump it wouldn't even try to fire the injectors and the engine died. I might add that I've seen this guy in action and he's a REAL mechanic, a marvel to watch as he diagnoses a problem.

Hopefully this doesn't sound discouraging, I mean for it to be just the opposite. Find out what everything does and verify that it works properly. Once that's done the whole system will function as it should.

32 Chevy · July 12, 2005, 08:26:22 PM

I have gone deep into the wiring schematics for this system, which is based on the 91 t bird. The computer is pre- VATS so thats not the problem. I have run the codes and followed all the faults and remedied them as best I can. Also replaced the Hall sensor, distributor, Pip sensor, module, and chased and verified all the grounds. Then went pin to pin to sensor on the EEC, checking continuity.

I started to get lost where some sensors need to have a baseline voltage of 5 volts, or 2.2 volts, or whatever. Some of those did not seem to fall in spec but I could not get the solid (non-heresay) information I needed to diagnose those problems. AAAUAGH! Like I said, I hate to throw in the towel, but when even the hired experts couldnt get her to fire, I'm at the end of my rope.

Can anyoine verify the fact that the 91 T bird EFI that I'm now trying to use is more difficult to troubleshoot than the Mustang based Mass air EFI? I have an opportunity to get a Mustang setup cheap and could swap it out, I guess...

Dave

1FATGMC · July 12, 2005, 09:38:36 PM

Quote from: "32 Chevy"I have gone deep into the wiring schematics for this system, which is based on the 91 t bird. The computer is pre- VATS so thats not the problem. I have run the codes and followed all the faults and remedied them as best I can. Also replaced the Hall sensor, distributor, Pip sensor, module, and chased and verified all the grounds. Then went pin to pin to sensor on the EEC, checking continuity.

I started to get lost where some sensors need to have a baseline voltage of 5 volts, or 2.2 volts, or whatever. Some of those did not seem to fall in spec but I could not get the solid (non-heresay) information I needed to diagnose those problems. AAAUAGH! Like I said, I hate to throw in the towel, but when even the hired experts couldnt get her to fire, I'm at the end of my rope.

Can anyoine verify the fact that the 91 T bird EFI that I'm now trying to use is more difficult to troubleshoot than the Mustang based Mass air EFI? I have an opportunity to get a Mustang setup cheap and could swap it out, I guess...

Dave

One thing I would suggest you look at is MegaSquirt. It is very inexpensive and guys have hooked it up to every type of motor in the world with good results. They have a very active board on the internet with lots of really smart people who will help you.

You use your sensors, injectors, etc. and throw the stock computer away. You can change the fuel curve with the motor running on a laptop, so you are all set with any future engine modifications.

I plan on using it on my GMC and also my lakester and maybe convert all of our cars/truck to it.

(HERE IS THEIR SITE)

c ya, Sum

Pope Downunder · July 12, 2005, 10:22:52 PM

Quote from: "32 Chevy"I have gone deep into the wiring schematics for this system, which is based on the 91 t bird. The computer is pre- VATS so thats not the problem. I have run the codes and followed all the faults and remedied them as best I can. Also replaced the Hall sensor, distributor, Pip sensor, module, and chased and verified all the grounds. Then went pin to pin to sensor on the EEC, checking continuity.

I started to get lost where some sensors need to have a baseline voltage of 5 volts, or 2.2 volts, or whatever. Some of those did not seem to fall in spec but I could not get the solid (non-heresay) information I needed to diagnose those problems. AAAUAGH! Like I said, I hate to throw in the towel, but when even the hired experts couldnt get her to fire, I'm at the end of my rope.

Can anyoine verify the fact that the 91 T bird EFI that I'm now trying to use is more difficult to troubleshoot than the Mustang based Mass air EFI? I have an opportunity to get a Mustang setup cheap and could swap it out, I guess...

Dave

The forums here are very good for detailed advice.
http://www.corral.net/main.html

or maybe here
http://classicbroncos.com/webmap/Engine/Fuel_Injection/

Crafty · July 13, 2005, 05:32:58 PM

I've also looked at megasquirt, the first version only did fuel injection, not ignition, but they know have (wait for it..) megasquirt 2 that does ignition. You can have a look at their forums at //www.msefi.com.
This will be a steep learning curve because not only do you have to assemble the ECU ( you buy it in kit form ) you then have to program it as well. THat said I think its an interesting little project and has a massive amount of support via yahoogroups and that forum too.

47-forvette · July 13, 2005, 08:57:29 PM

Dave,
I can relate to your frustration, but I encourage you not to give up. My ride has a 94 5.0 Liter with EFI, using the original computer. It was a lot of tedious detailed work chasing down each wire, testing each sensor, reading the votages etc., and I had the help of a good buddy who is as whiz at how EFI works much like Choco. We got mine to fire up easy enough, but it would not find its idle. It would purr for awhile, and then it would start loping like its got a serious cam. We probably spent 6 or 8 Saturdays testing every sensor and chasiing back wires. We finally figured out that we had the Oxygen Sensor's reversed, and it was driving itself (as well as us) crazy.

That said, it was the best automotive learning experience I ever had, and I wouldn't trade those Saturdays for anything. So don't give up, like you said, tackle it again after the driving season is over. Good luck!!

ONE37TUDOR · July 14, 2005, 11:56:38 PM

Anyone know of a site or book that would deal with a Ford 460 EFI system? I have a complete system but with the tall intake snorkel it will not fit under the hood so I need to modify the intake.
Thanks,

Scott...

32 Chevy · July 15, 2005, 12:58:55 AM

Well, It's too late to change my mind for this year. Man, it sure takes a lot less time to remove an EFI than it does to install one! Tomorrow I'll crank' er up with the trusty 4 bbl.

But I REALLY will try it again this winter. I'm going to toss the 91 t bird unit and use a more conventional, tried and true 89-83 mustang EFI. There is just a lot more information and parts available for that system especially wiring harnesses.. Thanks for input, everyone, and I'll post again when ther is an update.

Cheers,

Dave R.

buffalo bob · July 16, 2005, 11:42:49 PM

I used a '92 T-bird 5.0 (same as '91) in my F-100. For being the same engine as the Mustang 5.0 they have very little in common once past the long block. Wiring is basically the same but all different. I found out all that Ford Motorsport and other aftermarket wire kits are for the Mustang not the T-bird (also Lincoln Mk 7). If I remember right, the intake (phenom?) is different (curved & lower for hood clearance on the bird which gives you tin valve covers rather than the Mustangs aluminum), egr is different, throttle body, is similar but in a different location, no BAP sensor on the bird, headers are different (one side has the O-2 in the header other in the pipe), coil, the air pump, alternator, P/S, and air conditioner compressor are in different locations. The computer is the same as the Mustang automatic only some pins that are used on the Bird aren't used in the Mustang & visa versa. I bought an official wiring diagram from the local Ford Dealer which in my opinion is required. BTW something like 14 11x17 pages front & back with a book on how to read it. I stripped a T-bird of anything remotely associated with making the engine go including more wiring than I needed, fuel pump, relays, vapor canister, etc. Got it running a few years ago without to awful much drama and has been a very nice little reliable motor. Use it as a daily driver so I wanted to be able to plug it into the Ford guy's tester. Talked to Dr K's Fuel Injection out of Alabama who at the time seemed to know more about Fords EEC than anyone else, remember this was like ten years ago.