model A suspension & ride quality?

[Prime Evil]

Hi

Iam a newb,as if you couldnt tell

I was looking into building a Model A PU(31) that a local has in his hands.My concern was if it was possible with out resorting to Idependet front and rear suspension,to have a good ride quality?I would like to run a traditional styled suspension,drilled i beam & hairpin front,maybe a coil over rear?

Reason I ask is I have had a back surgery and want to get some kind of ride out of it.I am getting "building a traditional ford hot rod" by Mike Bishop to read this next week(snail mail) to gather more info/knowledge.

Any insight woul be great!

Tia

[GPster]

I'd have to say that the ride quality would only be part of your concerns. A Model A truck is kind of short front-to back and the area gets even closer when you channel it over the frame. It looks like it's channeled over an A frame which would cut about 4" off of the seat height and because the cab is close there would be no place to stretch your legs out. All of your upper body weight is going to be on your butt  because your legs won't be pointed down to the floor but foreward to the firewall. I had a Model A coupe that was channeled a like abount. I drove it daily for 5 years and then had to have back surgery because I had ruptured L5 10 years before and I couldn't stand it anymore. My coupe had been "buggy sprung" and driving did not worsen my problem. My surgery was a success and I was walking 6 hours after the surgery. I felt good enough to install coil spring rear suspension on the coupe while I was re-couperating  and it did ride better but the crunch in the coupe seatingmade me sell it because I never could get comfortable in it again. And there's probably at least 4" more seating length in a coupe body than in a truck cab. If you go and buy it to try it I would plan on front brakes. An un-fendered truck with a shortened bed would have minimal weight on the rear wheels and enough brakes to lock up the wheels is not any good if you don't have enough weight to hold the tires to the ground. GPster

[Prime Evil]

Thanks for the insight  

I had l4/l5 fused awhile ago,but still acts up.Iam quit a bit shorter, 5'6" then the average joe.  
I dont how much leg room I would actually need ,but 4" can be quit a bit when it comes to comfort while driving.I Quess ill have to see if i can check out an A' PU cab for room/comfort before I leep into this.

As far as brakes,i would definetly do front brakes.I dont mind an exciting ride,but unsafe i dont care for.I Would rather have a safe ride then a car that looks the part and be worried.Would the airheart/wilwood spindle mount disc brakes be enough to feel comfortably safe?

[Bruce Dorsi]

GPster makes some valid points!

There's no sense building something that is too uncomfortable to drive.

I have a T-Bucket which had wire wheels up front with the small Airheart calipers.  .....I am currently upgrading to larger, Wilwood (2 piston) calipers and slightly wider front wheels and tires.

The small amount of tire contact on the road with the 'cycle tires made braking somewhat scary.  .....As GPster said, the rear ends can get VERY light, VERY fast, and the small front tires and brakes did not inspire confidence!

With my T-bucket, I found the front tube axle with hairpins and suicide-mounted spring gave a very acceptable ride.  .....The harshness of ride which I experienced was from the rear.

The short wheelbase combined with the seat mounted just in front of the rear axle contributed to a harsh ride.  
....There is not much rear suspension travel on these vehicles, so that aggravates the situation.  
....There is also a relatively-high percentage of un-sprung weight at the rear compared to the total vehicle weight. This too, deteriorates ride quality.  Wheel and tire selection for the rear can greatly influence the un-sprung weight.

Another point to consider is the construction of the seats. .... Seating that has springs will be much more comfortable than foam-covered plywood.  ....If you must use plywood, cut out the area under your butt, and install webbing to cushion your spine!

[Prime Evil]

Thanks for the info!!

I was afraid the tiny 'cycle tries would induce more to the harsh ride.Glad to hear the front set up sounds like it will help out the ride.

Is there anything that can help ease the rear ride quality short of stretching the wheelbase?

As far as the seats,i was thinking a more modern bech seat out of a minivan or small import truck.That would give me some tushey cushion

Iam rethinking the front setup.Just go with a chrome reverse or torque thrusts like the rear, and "full" size disc brakes ala camaro or something similiar.

Thanks for all the informative responses!!!

[GPster]

Thanks for the info!!

I was afraid the tiny 'cycle tries would induce more to the harsh ride.Glad to hear the front set up sounds like it will help out the ride.

Is there anything that can help ease the rear ride quality short of stretching the wheelbase?

As far as the seats,i was thinking a more modern bech seat out of a minivan or small import truck.That would give me some tushey cushion

Iam rethinking the front setup.Just go with a chrome reverse or torque thrusts like the rear, and "full" size disc brakes ala camaro or something similiar.     One of the things you things you will find out is the heigth of the rubber of the tires acts as a shock absorber. One of the new 45 series tire on 17' rims will be a lot stiffer than a 205/75 15" even though they might have the same outside diameter. I can't remember weather the front wheels were spokes or spindle/mount American style but the shortness in side/wall height of the motorcycle type tire would be part of what would kill the ride. If they are spoke wheels you might find a differant rim and have the hubs re-laced to them. 40 spokes is somewhat standard and if you look around on motorcycle site you might find someone to make a set of spokes to fit. The wider the tire the more grip to the road they will have. Because of the apparent weight of the vehicle  and the size of the front tires the brakes shown in the second pictures (I couldn't see the brakes in the first picture) Camero front brakes might be overkill. You could think about a second set of calipers on each disc. The heavy discs are made to cool themselves and might be better suited to a heavy vehicle with fenders. When I put coils on my coupe I didn't use coil-overs, I used front coil springs out of a Corvair. If you think about the wire in coils as a wound up torsion bar the bigger coil diameter seemed to make more sense to me. It also was built like an early '50s Oldsmobile set-up with long bars and the coils behind the axel. With the coils behind the axel and the long bars 3" move of the axel might corespond to a 4" move of the springs which seemed to knock some of the harshness out of my set-up. But you'd still be sitting real close to the botion with the short wheelbase. One other idea would be that just because the floor sits on top of the frame doesnt mean that the bottom of the seat cushions have to start at the top of the floor. With out-side exhaust there might be room between the inside of the frame rails and the driveshaft to make some wells in the floor for more seat cushion. Have you bought it yet? GPster

Thanks for all the informative responses!!!

[48ford]

Unrelated to this string,but for a graet bed(yes I too have back problems)spend the bucks and get a foam bed that they advertize on t.v. with the girl walking on and can't spill the glass,trust me,we just got home from a visit with#2 son and i was shocked! best sleep i had in a long time!
I don't care what it cost your worth it.
thats why we are selling the mach-1 and we built the 46 ford.hurts me to ride in the mustang.
sorry to hi jack the post.
Russ&Irene

[Prime Evil]

   One of the things you things you will find out is the heigth of the rubber of the tires acts as a shock absorber. One of the new 45 series tire on 17' rims will be a lot stiffer than a 205/75 15" even though they might have the same outside diameter. I can't remember weather the front wheels were spokes or spindle/mount American style but the shortness in side/wall height of the motorcycle type tire would be part of what would kill the ride. If they are spoke wheels you might find a differant rim and have the hubs re-laced to them. 40 spokes is somewhat standard and if you look around on motorcycle site you might find someone to make a set of spokes to fit. The wider the tire the more grip to the road they will have. Because of the apparent weight of the vehicle  and the size of the front tires the brakes shown in the second pictures (I couldn't see the brakes in the first picture) Camero front brakes might be overkill. You could think about a second set of calipers on each disc. The heavy discs are made to cool themselves and might be better suited to a heavy vehicle with fenders. When I put coils on my coupe I didn't use coil-overs, I used front coil springs out of a Corvair. If you think about the wire in coils as a wound up torsion bar the bigger coil diameter seemed to make more sense to me. It also was built like an early '50s Oldsmobile set-up with long bars and the coils behind the axel. With the coils behind the axel and the long bars 3" move of the axel might corespond to a 4" move of the springs which seemed to knock some of the harshness out of my set-up. But you'd still be sitting real close to the botion with the short wheelbase. One other idea would be that just because the floor sits on top of the frame doesnt mean that the bottom of the seat cushions have to start at the top of the floor. With out-side exhaust there might be room between the inside of the frame rails and the driveshaft to make some wells in the floor for more seat cushion. Have you bought it yet? GPster

Thanks for all the informative responses!!!

I have not bought it as of yet,need some more funding to acquire it actually.I have a few misc items i need to liquidate and few vehicles as well.Iam looking towards the end of the year before i get my grubby hands on it

I will have to look at the seating arrangement a little closer when i go back out there,hopefully this weekend if i get the chance.Iam kinda stubby so I figured i would have to come up with some sort of brackets or mounts for the seats to mate to the floor.

I really do appreciate all the knowledge you are passing on,it helps me learn quicker then trial by error  

[Prime Evil]

Unrelated to this string,but for a graet bed(yes I too have back problems)spend the bucks and get a foam bed that they advertize on t.v. with the girl walking on and can't spill the glass,trust me,we just got home from a visit with#2 son and i was shocked! best sleep i had in a long time!
I don't care what it cost your worth it.
thats why we are selling the mach-1 and we built the 46 ford.hurts me to ride in the mustang.
sorry to hi jack the post.
Russ&Irene

ill take a look at that.iam on a pillow top now,and fells pretty darn good.But anything that can help Iam defintely for

I have an 89' stang vert that the rear end over bumps feels like there is no suspension at all.Hurts like he!! when i drive it.Thats one them ill be getting rid of for this project.

[Bruce Dorsi]

Is there anything that can help ease the rear ride quality short of stretching the wheelbase?

I am rethinking the front setup.    Just go with a chrome reverse or torque thrusts like the rear, and "full" size disc brakes ala camaro or something similiar.

==================================
IMHO, keeping the un-sprung weight as minimal as possible will produce the best ride.

By changing rear wheels and tires, I dropped approx 80# of un-sprung weight in the rear, and the ride quality improved drastically. ....The previous tires were N60-15 nylon bias-belted, and the new tires are 295-50x15 radials, which also added comfort to the ride.

I bought a set of air bags to replace the rear (Corvair) coil springs, but I haven't installed them yet. ....I've talked to a few guys who made the switch on T-buckets and they highly recommended them.

If you install large wheels, tires, brake rotors, and calipers, you will be adding CONSIDERABLE un-sprung weight to the front end, and I believe you will not like the resulting change in ride quality.  ...Although, braking will be improved!

There are a few guys here with LOTS of suspension knowledge, so hopefully they will give you additional info.

If the "theme" or "look" is the priority, some compromises will have to be made.

[Dave]

Is there anything that can help ease the rear ride quality short of stretching the wheelbase?

I am rethinking the front setup.    Just go with a chrome reverse or torque thrusts like the rear, and "full" size disc brakes ala camaro or something similiar.

==================================
IMHO, keeping the un-sprung weight as minimal as possible will produce the best ride.

By changing rear wheels and tires, I dropped approx 80# of un-sprung weight in the rear, and the ride quality improved drastically. ....The previous tires were N60-15 nylon bias-belted, and the new tires are 295-50x15 radials, which also added comfort to the ride.

I bought a set of air bags to replace the rear (Corvair) coil springs, but I haven't installed them yet. ....I've talked to a few guys who made the switch on T-buckets and they highly recommended them.

If you install large wheels, tires, brake rotors, and calipers, you will be adding CONSIDERABLE un-sprung weight to the front end, and I believe you will not like the resulting change in ride quality.  ...Although, braking will be improved!

There are a few guys here with LOTS of suspension knowledge, so hopefully they will give you additional info.

If the "theme" or "look" is the priority, some compromises will have to be made.

Years ago I had a 29 a sedan and i used speedway motors t bucket coils in the rear with my own home built spring cups and mounts and a split wishbone rear. It rode like a caddy and far as i know its still running with the same set up. at least it was at Kzoo 2 years ago. I know airbags ride good but there are other options out there. My 29 rode so good that id think the speedway coils for the t buckets are too heavy for a T? My 32 rode great to louisville but got back to michigan and the junk roads and it was choppy again. Ive got 250lb springs on the coilovers and it never bottomed out on the trip with the trunk packed full so i guess im gonna live with it. Actually it seems to get a little better every trip but im sure it will only go so far on getting better. Ive got a model a out in the garage with a 6 year old rod factory chassis at least thats what i was told and its never been run and ive got the coil overs set at the top of the rearend brackets and ran the springs up an inch and its still dragging the ground ?
We went to the corner and back a couple weeks ago after firing the motor and it seemed to ride ok but the coil overs seem short...At least to me they do .
Dave