2000 Taurus heater

[wayne petty]

that sounds like you might need access to a professional scan tool..

some of the consumer units might be able to issue cooling fan control commands in the output tests section..

how are the ground connections at the inside of the front end??

check the G100 connection for fraying and clean it.



check the G107 and G108 location



G104 and G105..



high speed and low speed fan relays...



you might take another relay that will plug into that position..  take the cover off..  give it a squeeze with your fingers or a tool to manually control the fans..

warning.. do not use a conventional relay.  DO NOT PROBE the wiring terminals in the relay socket..

i will have to dig up the fan wiring diagram..

in older ford fan controllers that used the black box CCRM...the low speed fan relay was controlled by a positive voltage signal from the PCM..

the high speed fan relay is controlled by a negative voltage signal from the PCM..

edit.. this triple relay system uses the PCM signals on the negative side..

either of them will blow out the driver in the PCM at 1 amp..

there is probably also a diode in the coil winding circuit on the  relay diagram on the side..  this protects the 1 amp max driver in the PCM from the high voltage pulse in the coil winding as the magnetic field collapses..

so a finger test of the relays.. NOT a short something to see if it works please..  this answer is a learning for people not familiar.. with the system..

so it looks a little complicated...



you will have to click to see the fan brake relay.. it shorts both sides of the motors to each other and that creates a great braking effect..

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/2001Taurusfanbrakerelay_zps698933c1.jpg?t=1392771382

[wayne petty]

if you notice.. the low speed fan power circuit goes thru  a resistor..

the high speed goes direct...


unlike the EARLIER CCRM boxes.. these are both controlled by the PCM by pulling the relay windings to ground...


why the fan brake RELAY..

these are permanent magnet motors.. they have armature windings and field magnets.. YES..just like a generator.  but if you follow the wiring diagram.. you will find.. that the fan brake relay.. when activated.. connects the fan input side with the fan ground side. .. this stops the fans from spinning in the ram air thru the radiator and building up voltage that will damage other devices when activated..

[jaybee]

Thanks so much Wayne, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[jaybee]

OK, got a day off without other complications so I could complete the work. Thanks for the diagrams, I wouldn't have found all those points just poking around. The G107/G108 ground appears to have gotten warm at some point. The wire is intact but the connector looks like it's gotten really warm because it's very flat on one side and the plastic was stuck to the inner fender. All the grounds cleaned up easily, though.

I did find a relay I could pull the cover up and placed it in place of the High Speed Fan Control Relay. Manually manipulating the relay contact doesn't start the fans in either position.

Next steps?

[wayne petty]

i am confused..  on the fan relay logic and fan braking relay wiring logic don't look right..

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/2001taurusfanlogic_zps084278e2.jpg?t=1393370640

[wayne petty]

if you close the contacts on either fan relay... do the fans come ON...

with the braking relay in normally unpowered mode...

can you photograph the front and back of the braking relay connector. so i can see the wiring colors into it..


i have found that on fords.. and a few others.. that SOMEBODY WHO drew the diagrams.. DID NOT understand FORD REVERSED relay wiring concept..

i have found other wiring diagrams that were ALSO drawn backwards where the relays are wired.. and only a skilled tech would spot it..

do me a favor..   disconnect both fans at the motors or where ever the motor connector is..

and UNPLUG the braking relay.. so you are not getting feed back..


hook the clip end of your test light to GROUND..  start probing the fan wiring connectors on the chassis side of the connector..  one side you should get a medium bright light to a bright light when you pinch the low speed relay..  pinch the high speed relay.. and you should have a bright light as you don't have a resistor in the circuit..


now... with the fans still disconnected.. plug the braking relay in...

find the 3rd wire that goes to the braking relay.. move the test clip to positive...

with the braking relay in a normal position.. do you get ground..

pinching the braking relay..  what happens to the circuit.

or... take photographs of the braking relay connector.. and of the back side so i can see the wiring colors..

or.. bend the wires out from the back.. like a sunburst.. and take an image from the front..  this will let me see..

there is more stuff at autozone dot com.. i have to run outside right now and prepare.. some tools.. bin to 5 gallon bucket.. for a diagnosis tomorrow..   i will have more info for you tonight. or before tomorrow morning..

i am going to PM you my cell number..

[jaybee]

Thanks once again Wayne, you've been a godsend as always. I probably won't get a chance to work on it again until Thursday.

[wayne petty]

an update from wayne...

well after a long talk on the phone...

and some brain storming..  

it seems that ford engineers.. have created something interesting..

LOW SPEED RADIATOR FAN OPERATION

the LOW speed command turns on the LOW SPEED fan relay.. and also the fan braking relay at the same time..

the low speed fan relay feeds the positive fan side thru a resistor so the fans operate at a low speed.. and the negative side is switched to ground when the braking relay is activated..


HIGH SPEED RADIATOR FAN OPERATION..
when the HIGH SPEED fan operation is called for.. the LOW SPEED RELAY seems to stay engaged..  as that also controls the  braking relay..

so the high speed relay sends positive directly to the fans without a resistor to make them run at full speed


Fans  TURNED OFF..

when the fans are turned off.. both high and low speed relays are off. but the fan braking relay is also off and resting in the NORMALLY CLOSED position..   this disconnects the ground connection for the fans..  and shorts the negative side of the fans.  to the positive side of the fans..   any voltage the perminent magnet motors create as they pinwheel in the ram air thru the radiator..  is shorted back to itself..  this prevents the fans from spinning free and burning the bearings out or from creating a massive voltage spike when the relays are requested and blowing out the electronics..

[jaybee]

FINAL UPDATE!

First of all Wayne is the best and thanks for your help figuring out the cooling fan circuit. It includes a low speed relay that feeds through a resister, a high speed relay to bypass the resister, and a braking relay. That one shorts both sides of the motors to ground through the resister in order to prevent the fans from free wheeling and generating stray voltage that could damage other things in the circuit. If you're familiar with dynamic braking in locomotives you'll get the idea. The traction motors turn into very powerful brakes by letting them generate electricity and dissipating that energy through a resistance grid.

The braking relay isn't located with the other relays on the radiator support. I couldn't find a place to tell me where it would be located. Eventually I found it in a box tucked down between the battery and fender, not labeled, where it was the only relay in a box that was built for a bunch of them. The contacts were filthy and the control circuit doesn't provide much juice.

That sorted out it had both high and low speed fans but still overheated at idle once heat soaked. Basically because it's the ONLY thing I could still think of I revved up the engine...and it cooled down! After pulling the water pump I don't know how. The pump had no vanes AT ALL, just the flat part of the hub with a saw toothed edge and pinholes rusted in it. As a result that last issue was engine speed related, not airflow related.

For the record this car came to me with "it loses a little coolant, and the heater really doesn't warm up." Digging through it I found;
--Thermostat in backward
--Blown head gasket
--Broken EGR tube
--An extensive search for a vacuum leak because the O-ring at the EGR mount slipped out of place, but in a way that was almost impossible to see
--Clogged cooling system
--Heater air blend door inoperative
--Radiator cooling fans never switched to high
--Water pump with hub virtually converted to iron ore...but seals and bearings still intact

Did I qualify for the Plymouth Troubleshooting Contest?

[UGLY OLDS]

FINAL UPDATE!

First of all Wayne is the best and thanks for your help figuring out the cooling fan circuit. It includes a low speed relay that feeds through a resister, a high speed relay to bypass the resister, and a braking relay. That one shorts both sides of the motors to ground through the resister in order to prevent the fans from free wheeling and generating stray voltage that could damage other things in the circuit. If you're familiar with dynamic braking in locomotives you'll get the idea. The traction motors turn into very powerful brakes by letting them generate electricity and dissipating that energy through a resistance grid.

The braking relay isn't located with the other relays on the radiator support. I couldn't find a place to tell me where it would be located. Eventually I found it in a box tucked down between the battery and fender, not labeled, where it was the only relay in a box that was built for a bunch of them. The contacts were filthy and the control circuit doesn't provide much juice.

That sorted out it had both high and low speed fans but still overheated at idle once heat soaked. Basically because it's the ONLY thing I could still think of I revved up the engine...and it cooled down! After pulling the water pump I don't know how. The pump had no vanes AT ALL, just the flat part of the hub with a saw toothed edge and pinholes rusted in it. As a result that last issue was engine speed related, not airflow related.

For the record this car came to me with "it loses a little coolant, and the heater really doesn't warm up." Digging through it I found;
--Thermostat in backward
--Blown head gasket
--Broken EGR tube
--An extensive search for a vacuum leak because the O-ring at the EGR mount slipped out of place, but in a way that was almost impossible to see
--Clogged cooling system
--Heater air blend door inoperative
--Radiator cooling fans never switched to high
--Water pump with hub virtually converted to iron ore...but seals and bearings still intact

Did I qualify for the Plymouth Troubleshooting Contest?

  Sure ...When you can do all of that in the 0.8 hours that warranty time gives you for "Cooling system diagnosis"  .....    



 Bob....

[Crosley.In.AZ]

Did I qualify for the Plymouth Troubleshooting Contest?

Interesting end to this and some of it could be avoided if simple maintenance was performed.

People in the automotive repair BIZ all have stories:

We just had a 2001 Ford F350 diesel 7.3 truck in for trans shift problems.

Code check brings up a long list in hard codes, many old codes in history ... yada , yada

We give the customer a list of items the truck needs just to determine if the trans is good or no good.

ignition switch waaaaaay worn out.  MLPS sensor bad. EGR bad, EGR leaking, batterys weak = needed jumped twice in our shop.  Ignition switch was dropping voltage to some systems as the vehicle drove down the road. Charging system problems may have trashed the batterys... The LIST goes on..

of course the customer does not understand WHY any of this is related to the transmission not shifting sometimes.

The customer needs to spend near 1 grand $ on repairs first  is something he does not want to do..  LOL

[wayne petty]

the impeller blade on this 2000 ranger 3.0 pushrod motor unfolded as it was warn away by trying to move the rust particles around the cooling system..

that was a really strange leak to find..  the disc that was cut out fell into the oil pan.. eventually got between the crank counterweights and the aluminum oil pump body and snapped that loose..  causing the oil pressure to be lost and it make horrible knocking noises also..  along with the overheating issue..

got a used 2001 3.0 long block.. darn. if ford did not upgrade from steel freeze plugs to stainless steel freeze plugs for the 2001 model year.

glad to have helped..

[jaybee]

Wow, good "lack of maintenance" stories. Just shows ANYTHING can happen when it's neglected long enough.

[Arnold]

FINAL UPDATE!

First of all Wayne is the best and thanks for your help figuring out the cooling fan circuit. It includes a low speed relay that feeds through a resister, a high speed relay to bypass the resister, and a braking relay. That one shorts both sides of the motors to ground through the resister in order to prevent the fans from free wheeling and generating stray voltage that could damage other things in the circuit. If you're familiar with dynamic braking in locomotives you'll get the idea. The traction motors turn into very powerful brakes by letting them generate electricity and dissipating that energy through a resistance grid.

The braking relay isn't located with the other relays on the radiator support. I couldn't find a place to tell me where it would be located. Eventually I found it in a box tucked down between the battery and fender, not labeled, where it was the only relay in a box that was built for a bunch of them. The contacts were filthy and the control circuit doesn't provide much juice.

That sorted out it had both high and low speed fans but still overheated at idle once heat soaked. Basically because it's the ONLY thing I could still think of I revved up the engine...and it cooled down! After pulling the water pump I don't know how. The pump had no vanes AT ALL, just the flat part of the hub with a saw toothed edge and pinholes rusted in it. As a result that last issue was engine speed related, not airflow related.

For the record this car came to me with "it loses a little coolant, and the heater really doesn't warm up." Digging through it I found;
--Thermostat in backward
--Blown head gasket
--Broken EGR tube
--An extensive search for a vacuum leak because the O-ring at the EGR mount slipped out of place, but in a way that was almost impossible to see
--Clogged cooling system
--Heater air blend door inoperative
--Radiator cooling fans never switched to high
--Water pump with hub virtually converted to iron ore...but seals and bearings still intact

Did I qualify for the Plymouth Troubleshooting Contest?

 
   Jaybee,Others..THANKS for the well wishes.

   I really admire you for your PERSERVERANCE in dealing with this
"Challenge". AND WINNING! Good on Ya!

   Sorry..for "derailing" from your thread.

   Jaybee..I have noticed in a few of your other posts that you have an interest AND knowledge of Railroading,train engines etc.
 PLEASE forgive me if this offends you :!: ..maybe you are a railroad buff..     I was a train conductor(passenger and freight) for 10 years. A long time ago. I spent a huge amount of time around locomotives.
   We were getting some new transit locomotives. I believe the very first one of these series was the one I..our crew would get for our shift.
   There were some dignitaries..politicians,officials,etc. around for the ribbon cutting.
   Off we went.These things would do 105mph before the overspeed cut in.The track speed was 90 mph and these trains often travelled at 100mph.
   This was a push/pull type of train locomotive set-up. Back and forth. Drive it from one end and pull the cars. Drive it from the other end..just a passenger car with controls at the other end..push it.
   We finished our night. I was a brakeman at the time. The conductor wanted to get right home.I wanted..as prescribed..to do a proper brake test and check that the brakes on the locomotive had released. This would require me to go to the other end of the train. The conductor wanted me to do a "quickie brake test" and just see that the brakes applied and released ON THE CARS ONLY..saving us the time of me going to the end of the train.So I did.
   We ran this thing REALLY  HARD! FAST! on our trip empty on the way home. About 30 miles.

   When we were pulling in crews in the yard called out that our train was ON FIRE!! The locomotive! We slowed down drastically into the yard and I bailed off on the fly to see what was going in.AS the train pulled by me and the locomotive would come by me. This thing was on fire!
By the time it stopped this thing was burning pretty bad. The rails..for a good 10 ' or so at the front and back of the locomotive were RED HOT!
The wheels were RED HOT! The cast iron brake shoes were for all intents and purposes ON FIRE! Flames and smoke just POURED from the traction motors.
 
   Maintenance personal were on this thing in a flash and discoverred that the engineer had left the independant brake on the locomotive ON FULL.
I had not checked it..JUST the cars..as the conductor wanted me to.

   SOoo we dragged this locomotive in..at a good 100mph for 30 miles..the traction motors of course powering the locomotive..AGAINST THE INDEPENDANT BRAKE.

   :oops:

   This locomotive was $500,000 at the time. Burnt up now

   I got 10 demerit marks(They gave you back 10 per year..when you reached 60 they fired you.The conductor 20,the engineer 30.

[jaybee]

Arnold, great story. Not fun, especially at the time, but a great story anyway. Wow, what you must have thought when you saw that new locomotive on fire.

I never worked on the railroad but I grew up within sight from the CB&Q (now BNSF) Chicago to Denver mainline. We were 4 miles up the road from what was at the time a very busy flat yard. They would do crew changes at the closest point from my house, just across a small creek valley so the sound was somewhat confined. Many a night as I was drifting off to sleep the idling train would start from a standstill upgrade. I really enjoyed listening to them notch out the throttle a bit at a time and gradually pick up speed, the engine noise moving off into the hills until nothing was left.

The CTC board was located in that yard just down the way. My Dad knew a guy who came to work one night to find the board open in both directions from one end of his 140 mile district to the other. He knew from the schedule there was a train in his section going each direction but didn't know where, as neither of them was currently at a sensor. He shut everything down immediately and went from there. The train crews must have had quite a moment when the signals went directly from green to red with no warning and no idea why...at 60mph in the hills, with limited visibility in most areas.