starter help needed

Beck · July 01, 2013, 07:39:39 PM

I don't believe I have asked here previously. If so please account it to "Old Timers".
I am trying to find a counter clockwise rotating starter. Preferably it will be "recycle yard" friendly. Gear drive would be a plus.
I have built my 2nd 1/5 scale pulling tractor. The 1st one needed a clockwise rotation so it was easy. I used a high torque SBC that was left over.
My new tractor needs to start from the other side. Without thinking I built another SBC high torque. Wrong.Then I built a '93 Honda Accord thinking if the starter plugged in from the tranny side it would spin the other way. Wrong again. Today I tried a '01 VW Passat, knowing some of the VW starters turned the other way.. Wrong again. At least I didn't do any work to the last one, beside removing it from the donor.
I did manage to reverse the rotation on the Honda and welded up the one way clutch. That lead to another problem. I need the clutch. The engine fires hard enough that it backs the bolt out of the crank that I am plugging the starter on to.
So a CCR starter is needed. I just don't know what vehicle to look for.

GPster · July 01, 2013, 10:07:21 PM

I believe Corvair engines rotate in the opposite direction but then the starter is on the transmission side of the flywheel/ring gear so that might cancel the rotation out. In the old days boats with dual engines had the engines run in opposite directions to cancel-out torqueing to the side so maybe something can be found in marine uses. I don't understand DC motors but ages ago you used to be able to reverse the rotation of repulsion/induction AC motors (AC motors with brushes) by rotating the brush holder to be in a different relation to the position to the fields. Going back to the Corvair idea. Can you mount the starter on the transmission side of the flywheel rather than the motor side? GPster

wayne petty · July 01, 2013, 10:54:43 PM

Quote from: "Beck"I don't believe I have asked here previously. If so please account it to "Old Timers".
I am trying to find a counter clockwise rotating starter. Preferably it will be "recycle yard" friendly. Gear drive would be a plus.
So a CCR starter is needed. I just don't know what vehicle to look for.

why not start with this starter drive catalog..

http://ww2.wagneralt.com/catalog/books/W2008-47.pdf

there are CW and CCW starter drives listed..

above that are OEM starter numbers they fit..

there are also starter numbers that are 5 digits.. those are lester interchange numbers... and are used at a LOT of parts stores..

i just don't know if you need a starter that is listed as CW or CCW... in these pages.

sorry if i seem cranky tonight.. i just cannot figure out which way to turn.. ;-)

edit..

perhaps one of the catalog download sections from this..

i don't know how much torque or KWatts you need to spin it over...

http://www.smallenginestarters.com/enginestarters.html

i was looking for the full size alternator and starter catalogs online.. and also similar to these small engine starters..

edit again... here is the catalog i was looking for..

http://www.waiglobal.com/images/Publications/catalogs/wai_flip_catalogs/87-702-10AWPS/87-702-10AWPS.pdf

pictures and rotation directions start at page 172..

and the numbers will cross reference back and forth...

Beck · July 02, 2013, 12:44:54 AM

Quote from: "GPster"I believe Corvair engines rotate in the opposite direction but then the starter is on the transmission side of the flywheel/ring gear so that might cancel the rotation out. In the old days boats with dual engines had the engines run in opposite directions to cancel-out torqueing to the side so maybe something can be found in marine uses. I don't understand DC motors but ages ago you used to be able to reverse the rotation of repulsion/induction AC motors (AC motors with brushes) by rotating the brush holder to be in a different relation to the position to the fields. Going back to the Corvair idea. Can you mount the starter on the transmission side of the flywheel rather than the motor side? GPster

I have made a handle to hand hold the starter. It is not permanently mounted to the tractor. I am using a 1/2 drive extension grafted to the starter output gear. Using a socket I engage a bolt that is in the end of the crank.
Some of the starters will change rotation by just changing polarity. The Honda one I have does. It doesn't seem to have much power running backwards though. I wonder if there is "advance" built into the electric motor when it is running the right way. When reversed it is like an auto engine running with a retarded ignition - no power. My little motor can stall the starter motor if it is engaged when the motor is coming up on compression.
Other starters run the same direction when polarity is switched. My high torque SBC does this. To reverse the direction you need to do ONE of these. Reverse polarity on the brushes OR reverse polarity on the field.
Either way if the motor is reversed the over-riding clutch will not spin the drive. I defeated the over-riding clutch on my Honda starter so it would turn the engine. Now I realize I need that feature. Without the clutch when the motor starts it turns the bolt out since the engine is running faster than the starter.

Beck · July 02, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

Quote from: "wayne petty"
Quote from: "Beck"I don't believe I have asked here previously. If so please account it to "Old Timers".
I am trying to find a counter clockwise rotating starter. Preferably it will be "recycle yard" friendly. Gear drive would be a plus.
So a CCR starter is needed. I just don't know what vehicle to look for.

why not start with this starter drive catalog..

http://ww2.wagneralt.com/catalog/books/W2008-47.pdf

there are CW and CCW starter drives listed..

above that are OEM starter numbers they fit..

there are also starter numbers that are 5 digits.. those are lester interchange numbers... and are used at a LOT of parts stores..

i just don't know if you need a starter that is listed as CW or CCW... in these pages.

sorry if i seem cranky tonight.. i just cannot figure out which way to turn.. ;-)

edit..

perhaps one of the catalog download sections from this..

i don't know how much torque or KWatts you need to spin it over...

http://www.smallenginestarters.com/enginestarters.html

i was looking for the full size alternator and starter catalogs online.. and also similar to these small engine starters..

edit again... here is the catalog i was looking for..

http://www.waiglobal.com/images/Publications/catalogs/wai_flip_catalogs/87-702-10AWPS/87-702-10AWPS.pdf

pictures and rotation directions start at page 172..

and the numbers will cross reference back and forth...

Wayne, For some reason those catalogs will not load on my PC. They seem to start then quit. I don't know if it is my machine or the server they are on.
I don't think a small engine starter will turn this motor over. I tried a push mower starter on my other tractor which is 50cc. It couldn't turn it. Those starters depend on the gear reduction they have by engaging the large flywheel gear. I am driving the motor at the starter rpm.
I looked at a drive catalog today. Most of what I saw CCR was industrial/agricultural stuff. The VW listings I saw in that catalog were CCR. That is what lead me to a VW starter at the salvage yard this afternoon. I must have missed some...
I did notice that a Ford Courier was listed as CCR. There are none of them to be found here in the rust belt.

For others looking and not knowing - Rotation is listed as you look at the drive gear end of the starter.

wayne petty · July 02, 2013, 01:50:03 PM

ok.. i have an idea...

there is a way to use an early ford starter with the bendix hanging out the front.. in a reversing mode.. changing the field windings... that might give you the ability to spin it either direction..

sorry if you cannot get them to load..

copy the links.. paste them into GOOGLE and search for that link...

when the link shows up.. right click to download it..

Beck · July 02, 2013, 02:00:31 PM

Quote from: "wayne petty"sorry if you cannot get them to load..

copy the links.. paste them into GOOGLE and search for that link...

when the link shows up.. right click to download it..

Must be my pc. I found the link through Google. Same problem. Won't load.

enjenjo · July 02, 2013, 07:02:01 PM

If you have a nearby starter repair service, they can probably fix you up with info on what starter to use. This looks likely http://www.milligandieselandelectric.com/about.htm

papastoyss · July 03, 2013, 12:37:27 PM

VW Golf, Rabbit, Jetta cars from 1977 thru 1992 that were auto trans had the starter mounted on the firewall side of the car pointed 180 degrees from the manual trans version. They also have an internal needle bearing on the starter drive end instead of relying on a bushing in the trans housing as manual trans versions.

wayne petty · July 03, 2013, 03:57:17 PM

i found my starter catalog

you wanted exposed drive ends...

i still don't know which way they actually freewheel..
these are offset gear reduction units. from Hitachi
lester 16584 CW
lester 16962 CW
lester 17801 CW from 01/04 6.6 gm pickup diesels

lester 16816 CCW
lester 17178 CCW

PMGR

16817 CW
17196 CW
17509 CW from acura slx /trooper 3.2 or 3.5 mounts like chevy
17246 CW

nippondenso

OSGR

16839 CCW 86-91 acura legend 2.5/2.7
16893 CCW 87-93 lexus es250 camry, celica 2.0, 2.2 2.5
16978 CCW 87-95 camry celica mr2 2.0, 2.2, 2.5
16696, 16730, 17169, CCW 80-94 subaru 1.8, 2.2
17242 CCW 90-97 subaru legasy 2.2, 2.5
16888,17170 90-04 legacy, baja, outback MT 2.2, 2.5
17263,17400 CCW 91-95 camry lexus ES300 2.0, 2.3, 3.0

Beck · July 04, 2013, 06:31:24 PM

I've gotten super swamped doing the last minute things to get my little tractors to the pull this weekend. I am going to have to drop the starter for a week or so. Just no time right now.

The new little tractor turned out slick. Lettering on the hood sides looks good. Then loading it I popped the hood. I put some touch up on it but it is going to definitely need a re-do. Everything I have touched in the last few weeks I've screwed up.

With the problems I am having with my tiny stuff I just can't imagine the problems Hooley is going through. He has to be tough! OR just a whole lot better than me.

Warpspeed · July 04, 2013, 06:44:07 PM

Another way to go about all this might be to use an aftermarket gear drive starter such as produced IMI.

http://www.hitorque.com/searchresults.asp?cat=25

http://www.hitorque.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IMI%2D301%2D003

IMI make starters for both rotations and for a very wide range of applications.
I am sure they may either already have something (marine SBC maybe), or could build you a "special" by assembling a mix of existing off the shelf IMI parts.

Four things will be needed.
1/ A reverse rotation motor (standard)
2/ A reverse rotation clutch/bendix
3/ The correct pinion (tooth pitch and number of teeth)
4/ The correct mounting nose to fit the bellhousing and properly locate the pinion depth.

The way these IMI starters are put together, it is pretty easy for them to mix and match parts to suit just about anything.

It might be worth contacting IMI and see what they say.

The only other reverse starter application I can think of that has not already been mentioned would be Mazda rotary.
These have two alternative starter motor locations.
The most common type is behind the flywheel, beside the gearbox.
Some less common rotary models had the starter bolted right on top of the engine in front of the flywheel.

Beck · July 12, 2013, 11:25:16 AM

I finally had enough time to get the CCR starter issue worked out. In the end it was really simple. I actyally have 2 different starters. The Toyota Cellica with the small engine has a CCR starter begining in the early 90's. I picked up a '99 model. It is a gear reduction unit. The other one is from a Subaru. I picked up a '93 Legacy, which is also gear reduction. All the Subaru's are CCR. I modified the Toyota output for my use but have not used it yet. The Subaru is sitting for now. The price was right at $28 each at the local recycle yard. $8 each back if I bring them cores.

Beck · July 12, 2013, 01:00:30 PM

Quote from: "Beck"I finally had enough time to get the CCR starter issue worked out. In the end it was really simple. I actyally have 2 different starters. The Toyota Cellica with the small engine has a CCR starter begining in the early 90's. I picked up a '99 model. It is a gear reduction unit. The other one is from a Subaru. I picked up a '93 Legacy, which is also gear reduction. All the Subaru's are CCR. I modified the Toyota output for my use but have not used it yet. The Subaru is sitting for now. The price was right at $28 each at the local recycle yard. $8 each back if I bring them cores.

OOPS ---- Camry not Cellica on the above....