Whats up with Ford MoCo?

[Glen]

Nope, I dont think I should post this.  

In respect to the board, fat cat and its members, I dont want to start a flame war between import supporters and domestic.

[homer]

Well I will. I will NOT buy any import car. Period! I will always buy new GM or Dodge. Have had great history with both.

Now a disclaimer. I do buy imports for one use. My son and I buy them to use in demo derbys in the compact class.

My money stays here where I make it.

I know that it is not possible for all of it to stay here, but I do my darndest to try.

Homer2

[Carps]

Actually the news that Ford was having problems was a surprise to me.

Wasn't to me.

I thought I saw enough new Ford Trucks, SUV's and Mustangs around to keep that place going strong, guess I was wrong.

It's one thing to sell lots of cars but a whole other to do it profitably.  Warranty expenses can and do eat a big hole in the purse if the stuff you are selling wasn't right before you started to sell it.

I know percieved quality is what gets folks to come back and buy, guess I'm old fashioned, but I always thought styling and 'value' were what brought the customers in and sold the cars.

Unfortunateley, and this is my observation only, Ford seem to rely too much on their customers do too much of their research and development work.  That means way too much money wasted on warranty when maybe half as much spent in the lab or pre build testi and evaluation would have been more profitable.

I always thought that GM and Ford had bigtime problems because of atrocious styling for many years.

Considering that's the number one 'issue' with product from my employer, I think whilst style is imprtant, value is more critical but the key to that isn't so much great looks as quality, durability and reliability.  Customers don't want to be coming back to hav their expensive new car fixed all the tim, they want to use it and know it will get them there and back.

I always thought the Taurus was the uglies thing on earth, but always heard the PR that it was out selling anything around. Never could resolve that one in my head.[/the first generation Taurus was a sales winner, but for the past ten years or more Camry has been the number 1 selling passenger car in the US only beaten a couple of times by Honda Accord.

Guess it gets down to either building something that sells itself so well that you make your money in volume, like a little profit on each (econoboxs/sedans) or make something that you don't sell much of but make a big profit on each (truck/SUVS).

It's actually in the best balance of both.  Unfortunately if you have a rep for poor quality and comebacks, you'll not sell either ad ultimately find yourself in deep doo doos.  Ford's F series is still the number one seller in the US.  The other problem they have is in production efficiency.  Simply put, the big US car makers pay too many people to build their cars and until they fix that, they'll continue to struggle against more efficient organisations building higher quality products.

So how do the others build better quality with less people?  Simple, they look after those people better.  Think about it.  One company employs half the number of people as another, so they pay them more and provide better staff ameneties and working conditions etc.  In total that uses up say a third of the difference in the companies total payrolls.  Happy and motivated staff, bigger profit margins, so they can invest more in R&D as well as ofer bonuses to their dealers to sell more and/or reduce prices to make the product more appealing to customers.  Of course if the product is good, then the spmart move is to sell to the market price and share the riches with your people which in turn keeps them motivated and keeps them in front.

It's a lttle more complex than this, but in a nutshell that's how it works with my employer and one of the key reasons, why we're number 2 with a bullet.

Apparently Ford has been selling a lot with no profit and trying to make up for it in volume.

And that is always the first nail in any businesses coffin.

FWIW, there's a large delegation of FOMOCO folks working with the folks from my employer, where thay ere learning ow we systemise our processes and how our company philosophy makes us what we are.  The biggest challenge for them isn't to learn or even understand it, but to put it into practice in thier own business.  Why would they do that?  Because a key part of the company's philosophy relies on having strong competitors to keep us moving forward and not becoming complacenet.

[Carps]

The big three's dealers don't help the good value part any.  The manufacturers cut costs and give incentives....the dealers pocket the incentives and try and sell for MSRP.

That's good business if they can do it.  Rember if the dealer can't make a profit, then there's no dealer.  No dealers, no sales.  One thing that really screwed Ford in this regard was their plant to operate 'factory stores', didn't work and the 'family dealers' jacked up on them.  Another part of the T company * is that they do not own any dealerships, they are all 'family' owned and no 'family' can own so many dealrships as to cut off the 'competition', thus they have to compete in the market place with everybody else.  It's the factories job to provide the profit margin and other 'incentives' to help them do this.

If the manufacturers could force the dealers to sell cars at modest mark-ups they'd be selling cars.

The very best auto dealerships run on a 'nett profit' or bottom line of between one and one and a half percent of turnover.  The rally good ones can make up to two percent.  Sure the total turnover is huges and they make big dollars but could you run your business on that?  And when there's a 'factory' or 'Corporate Giant' owned store selling against you, with no need to make any profit on the car, because the factory just wants the 'numbers' your business is always going to struggle.

The average car salesman doesn't really know what in the hell they are selling anyways.....whatever is on the lot....why should they get a big commissions?  Pay them $10 an hr to run the cash register.

I'd wager they are probably not earning big commissions and that's whaay they don't know 'squat', because the good sales consultants are earning heaps more money selling other things.  rembere what I said in the previous post about working conditions?  'Pay peanuts get monkeys' and the business fails, because nobody knows how to do anything properly and your customers walk.

[Carps]

Isn't Ford's Retirement Plan part of the blame for this? I mean, their Sales were up,they were o.k., then,   Sales dropped, they had a attrition plan, and they are kinda left holding the bag?

Enjenjo is right, they only have themselves to blame for this and they have known about it for many, many years, but did nothing and now it's too late, they are crippled by it.

I'm not blaming the Retiree's, just Economics. I just don't think Fords Income is enough to offset the outgo.

It doesn't need to be if thay had done it right.  My retirement plan is ten times better than I'd have if I worked for Ford or GM and it won't cripple the company.  Why?  Because I contribute jointly with the company and it is not run as a part of the company but as a separate buisiness untit, reporting not to the board of directors of the company but a board of driectors elected by and taken from the stakeholders, that is, the employees.  It is a very profitable businesss unit annd even if the company closed it's doors tomorrow, there's enough money for us all to retire, and we could probably even keep this business unit running because of the way it's set up.

[Carps]

So now Ford is loosing a ton of money in order to pay off the expensive help so they can start making money in the future with cheap, low benefit help?

Yup, and they'll have to deal with all the problems that creates.

..it was felt that the major buyers of Big airplanes were really concerned about quality.

And they do, but they are no longer prepared to pay a larger than accceptable premium for it.

Then AirBus started kicking butt and it became obvious that a cheaper, lower operating cost aircraft was what the buyers really wanted.

This is why, because it's a quality product, that provides reliable service at a minimum cost, to both buy and to run.

Boeing had been selling on reputation for quite awhile and then decided to get 'the help' to work harder to save the company, when it became obvious that Boeing needed to build more economically competitive aircraft, both in purchase price and operation costs as well as better capabilities, the 'buyouts' and layoffs began, even to the sell off of various mfg facilities to other vendors.

It's  pretty vicious circle but no matter which way you look at it, cutting costs is likely going to lead to cutting corners, which will lead to cutting your own throat.  But it's not impossible.  Screwing suppliers isn't the right way to do it, that's why the T company provides management and if required financial assistance to their suppliers to help them reduce waste and cust costs whilst maintaining quality.  Some cars include wasted features, but if you don't do your customer research you'll never learn what you can remove without upsetting them.  For example, those of you with seat position memories in your cars.  How many have ever used the passenger seat position memory.  Almost none I'd wager, so here's a feature that can be deleted to save a few bucks without annying or turning anybody off.

How do you make building a car cheaper?  Use technology to your advantage and o make your workers livs easier.  A visit to the T facility at Bowling Green will reveal some wild stuff.  For examle the guys who install the heaters and other behind dash anel parts don't have to climb in and out of the car, they sit down to do their work comfrtable as their moving seat swings them in and out of each car as it passes down the line.

In the paint shop, each car gets the exact same ammount of paint, because it arrives in a one car container and is applied by robots that don't get tired and apply too much to one panel.  Minimise waste, is the best method to achieve lower costs.  Not reducing staff.  Another is to manage from the bottom up.  The staff know better than the boss how to do things, so if they think of a better way, then let them test it and if proven implement it immediately.  The Toyota production system is the benchmark of our industry and it's no secet that every single task within the company is systemised and there is no deviation.  Why not?  because the only reason to deviate would be because the system is not working.  If it's not working, then it must be changed to make it work with a standardised work practice, that includes measures of time and quality.  Yup, every job has a procedure that must be performed within a time frame and to a specified level of quality.  If a worker passes a poor quality job to another workstaion, then it's the next workers responsibility to stop the line and help his coleague fix whatever is causing the problem.  No prcess or procedure is set in stone only the philosophy that drives it.

Humm, wonder if that means Boeing is gonna be doing a Ford/GM/AMC thing in the future.

Toyota's aicrat division is bubbling along quite nicely.  

Sure hope my retirement benefits last as long as I do.

I know mine will.  Guess that's why I'm kinda glad I chose to work where I d instead of GM or Ford.  

[Carps]

The blam is on everyone,not just the UAW workers,everyone.

And sadly, until EVEYONE, management and workers alike accepts that fact, the proverbial rabbit will remain inside that hat.   :cry:

[Carps]

Well I will. I will NOT buy any import car. Period! I will always buy new GM or Dodge. Have had great history with both.

My employer recongises this as being very important and that's why everywhere they sell thir products they set up locally, employing locals to design and build products that best suit local tastes and needs.  They do their best to assimilate into the local environment and whilst the profits must of course end up in the corporate coffers at head office, more than most people realise is invested back into the local communities and the local business.

Naturally, like any business, they will purchse supplies and components from the lest expensive supplier who delivers good that meet the required level of quality and price.  everybody should do that in their business and most are often surprised to learn thet the so called 'import' have a higer degree of 'local' content then the so called 'Domestic' products.  Here in Oz, we source components for the cars we build from all over the world, including USA.  Our current crop of cars have the higest levels of local content bar none yet are still considered 'Jap' cars as opossed to the 'Aussie' cars from GM and ford that are built with increasingly higher content of imported components from cheaper suppliers in China, Taiwan and India etc.  Aisde from it's big selling Commodore based products, pretty much every other vehicle marketed here by GM is built in Taiwan.

I don't wish to start a flame war either, but I would ask you to all consider, before criticising any car makers or their products to consider whay they do what thay are doing and if they are good corporate citizens doing well or a business in trouble trying to survive.  I don't think any of them have a programe of ripping people off, they just do what they do in a different way.

The other part of the deal is, the world is trully a smaller plavce today than ever it was and the only way for big business to survive is to compete globally, that means buying your materials and components in the markets where you wish to sell your products.  If they don't, they will die and the nations and families that have previously prospered from their activities will suffer.

Now a disclaimer. I do buy imports for one use. My son and I buy them to use in demo derbys in the compact class.

                     

[/quote]My money stays here where I make it.[/quote]
Mine too, along with my loyalty.    

I know that it is not possible for all of it to stay here, but I do my darndest to try.

Can't do much more than that, can we?

[Carps]

Sorry for all the long winded replies, but I tend to do that when the toic is something I have a pretty clear knoledge of and it's dear to my heart.

Good to see this one has not degenerated into a them versus us flame war, because it's only by intelligent discussion, understanding and communication thet the corporate suits (yes I am oneof them) will ever resolve these kinds of issues and keep their corporations in business.

Making desisions based on perceptions or irational views has never and will never fix anything that's not working properly.

[Flipper]

Well I will. I will NOT buy any import car. Period! I will always buy new GM or Dodge. Have had great history with both.

My money stays here where I make it.

I know that it is not possible for all of it to stay here, but I do my darndest to try.

Homer2

How many Chrysler, GM, and Ford cars are assembled in Canada or Mexico?  How about their major components?

I don't have a lot of loyalty for "american" cars built outside of the US.  I don't care where the corporate offices are.  If americans built it, it's an american car to me.

Here is a list of Canadian built ones (and where in Canada):

DaimlerChrysler Built in:
Dodge Caravan (minivan) Windsor
Chrysler Town & Country (minivan) Windsor
Chrysler Pacifica (sport wagon) Windsor
Chrysler 300 Series (car) Brampton
Dodge Magnum (sport wagon) Brampton
Dodge Charger (sport sedan) Brampton
   
Ford  
Ford Edge Oakville
Lincoln MKX Oakville
Ford Freestar (minivan) Oakville
Ford Crown Victoria (car) St. Thomas
Mercury Grand Marquis (car)  St. Thomas
   
General Motors  
Chevrolet Impala (car) Oshawa
Chevrolet Monte Carlo (car) Oshawa
Pontiac Grand Prix (car) Oshawa
Buick Allure/LaCrosse (car) Oshawa
Chevy Silverado (pickup) Oshawa
GMC Sierra (pickup)  Oshawa
Chevrolet Equinox (SUV) Ingersoll
Pontiac Torrent (SUV) Ingersoll
Suzuki XL7 (SUV) Ingersoll

Here is a list of Mexican ones:

Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr

Cadillac Escalade EXT, Chevrolet Avalanche and Suburban,  GMC Yukon XL and HHR

Dodge Ram Heavy-Duty trucks and PT Cruisers

Volkswagen Beetle and Jetta

[tomslik]

Well I will. I will NOT buy any import car. Period! I will always buy new GM or Dodge. Have had great history with both.

My money stays here where I make it.

I know that it is not possible for all of it to stay here, but I do my darndest to try.

Homer2

How many Chrysler, GM, and Ford cars are assembled in Canada or Mexico?  How about their major components?

I don't have a lot of loyalty for "american" cars built outside of the US.  I don't care where the corporate offices are.  If americans built it, it's an american car to me.

Here is a list of Canadian built ones (and where in Canada):

DaimlerChrysler Built in:
Dodge Caravan (minivan) Windsor
Chrysler Town & Country (minivan) Windsor
Chrysler Pacifica (sport wagon) Windsor
Chrysler 300 Series (car) Brampton
Dodge Magnum (sport wagon) Brampton
Dodge Charger (sport sedan) Brampton
   
Ford  
Ford Edge Oakville
Lincoln MKX Oakville
Ford Freestar (minivan) Oakville
Ford Crown Victoria (car) St. Thomas
Mercury Grand Marquis (car)  St. Thomas
   
General Motors  
Chevrolet Impala (car) Oshawa
Chevrolet Monte Carlo (car) Oshawa
Pontiac Grand Prix (car) Oshawa
Buick Allure/LaCrosse (car) Oshawa
Chevy Silverado (pickup) Oshawa
GMC Sierra (pickup)  Oshawa
Chevrolet Equinox (SUV) Ingersoll
Pontiac Torrent (SUV) Ingersoll
Suzuki XL7 (SUV) Ingersoll

Here is a list of Mexican ones:

Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr

Chevy Suburban, Avalanche and HHR

Dodge Ram trucks and PT Cruisers

Volkswagen Beetle and Jetta

uh, they're ALL american built, you know, (south american, north american)
but i understand what you're saying;)
i work for an independant shop (not poop boys, sorry cros) and after a while, you realise they're ALL pieces of sheet, they ALL have their problems.
even toyota (sorry carps)...

[Carps]

Huh, they're ALL american built, you know, (south american, north american)

Took the words clean out of my mouth.

....after a while, you realise they're ALL pieces of sheet, they ALL have their problems.
even toyota (sorry carps)...

No need to apologise to me, if they were perfect we wouldn't have to work so hard at trying to make them better.

One of the key issues for us in reaching global number 1, is that the volume can create more problems than it's worth.  Thus the company edict remains, we will reach number one when it's our time, not before.  Whislt it is a key objective, the primary goal is not to create problems for our customers or prostitute our good name and quality just for the sake of volume.  It gets harder every day, but that's part of what makes life good, 'easy' is nowhere near as satisfying.