Motor oil

[enjenjo]

This was forwarded to me, and I thought it might be of interest to the members. This was discussed a while back, and there is some more info here.

While at dinner at Pigeon Forge this past weekend, we had an interesting conversation about problems with cam wear with flat tappet lifters and today's oil quality. The bottom line is that zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) has been drastically reduced in today's oils.

Zinc in combination with phosphate has been used in the past to help protect cam lobes and lifters from extreme pressure wear factors. Beginning in the mid-90's the manufacturers asked the oil companies to reduce the ZDDP in oil because it was causing emissions problems. When higher mileage engines began to develop some blowby, it would cause problems with oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Since all the manufacturers had gone to roller lifters on their engines they did not need the zinc protection.

The resulting reduction in ZDDP has been causing cam and lifter failures in flat tappet cam use. An article in the June issue of Hot Rod magazine covered this in detail, but the bottom line is that oil with a rating above SH has significantly less additive. For example, SH oil had .130 zinc and 120 phosphorous. Today's oil, SL, has .087 Zinc and .080 phosphorous. It is believed that further reductions are expected in the future.

So what do we do? Comp Cams claims that Shell Rotella T oil is great for engines with flat tappet cams and no oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. Rotella T is a diesel truck oil, but meets today's SL as well as CI-4+. CI-4 is the designation for Diesels and relates to the zinc and phosphorous content. The zinc is .140 and the phosphorous is .130. Because of the two chemicals, it is not recommended for engines with oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. Another solution, if you are going to use today's oil, is to add a 4 ounce bottle of GM camshaft and lifter lube to each oil change. It is part #12345501. When breaking in a new cam, GM EOS Assembly lubricant, part#1052367 is recommended. It is in a 16 ounce bottle. The cam manufacturers may have their own break in oil as well.

Starting in 2007, trucks will start getting catalytic converters, so Rotella T will likely begin reducing the ZDDP content. So, the other suggestion is to use racing oil. It may be marked for off road use only, because it has ZDDP and is not recommended for todays emission controlled vehicles. However, for our use, it is a good solution when Rotella T changes. Pennzoil 20w-50 racing oil has .196 zinc and .180 phosphorous. Quaker State Q racing oil has .200 zinc and .180 phosphorous. Quaker State racing oil has a variety of viscosities that may be more suitable.

If you think this would be useful to others on your distribution list, please forward it. In the meantime, Shell Rotella T is readily available at Wal-Mart and is inexpensive.

[Crosley.In.AZ]

Back in the days I ran serious HP on the streets , an engine builder I delt with wanted the GM EOS Assembly lubricant used during all cam shaft run on start up.


What does the Synthetic Rotellla oil look like for needed additives??

As a side note many of the 1800 Goldwing guys use Rotella oil in the bikes.  The additives that can affect a wet clutch are not in the Rotella oils.  The main  words we look for are " energy conserving" on the label.  If the words "are" there , we avoid the oil

[tomslik]

As a side note many of the 1800 Goldwing guys use Rotella oil in the bikes. The additives that can affect a wet clutch are not in the Rotella oils. The main words we look for are " energy conserving" on the label. If the words "are" there , we avoid the oil

some of the harley guys are going with rotella too...

i'm still using redline.....in all 3 holes....just not the same stuff in all 3

[Uncle Bob]

Remember when leaded fuel was phased out and the hobby ran wild with stories about how all our older engines would be destroyed in no time?  This smells a little bit the same............although there's more justification here I think.  ZDDP has long been the go to anti-wear additive that most benefitted the cam lobes and flat faced (relatively) lifters.  Virtually every single good quality oil has used it for more than 50 years now.  The famous (infamous?) Z7 in Pennzoil was the marketing method of bragging about it (Z for zinc, 7 for .7%...much higher than today's oils).  

I suspect this is one of those things, similar to the unleaded fuel experience, that we'll have to learn how it's going to really shake out.  As with valve recession in the unleaded example, excessive cam/lifter wear will most likely be an issue in severe service (racing, towing, hard pulling of most kinds, ricky racer applications of extreme valve spring pressures, etc.)  In normal city/highway use, probably less so.  Though this is one time I could be easily persuaded that an additive would be worthwhile................as long as it's purpose and content is known.  I'd bet there're going to be some opportunists out there that will use scare tactics to take advantage of car hobbyists lack of understanding in this area to sell $6 quarts of "special old car, I baby my ride" oil.  While others will use something like the GM additive that will only slightly increase the cost and get the job done as well, or better.

This is all additive based, it has nothing to do with whether it's a synthetic, or mineral base oil.  The ZDDP is activated at the point of temperature spikes caused by friction (e.g. metal to metal at the lobe/lifter interface).

Tony, the clutch concern is with "friction modified" oils, although that's somewhat of a mis nomer because it doesn't exactly define in which direction the frictional characteristics are modified.  As you're probably aware, ATF is modified to provide desireable friction characteristics in automatic transmissions.  Motor oils designed to help improve fuel economy are intended to be "slipperier", so there is the key in your correct reference to "energy conserving" being the tip off.

Articles like this serve a good purpose in that they spread the word (Frank, I would guess you got this from Carl as I did), but in mentioning a single brand of product, in this case Rotella T, it implies that this is the "only" solution.  The "magic" is that Rotella is a "fleet" oil, or in other words intended for HD diesel application.  As an example, I did a quick search (gotta love the www) on a competitive product, Chevron's Delo 400, and they have the same zinc and phosphorous numbers in their API CI 4 grade.  Their data sheet says it meets the 2007 standards, so if .13 and .12 respectively are adequate then it's good to go.  This may be a regional thing, but Delo 400 is more readily available around here in the typical car guy retail outlets.  It's available in 10w30 (in my opinion more suitable for street use) in addition to the straight grade 30 or the 15w40.

[Dave]

As a side note many of the 1800 Goldwing guys use Rotella oil in the bikes. The additives that can affect a wet clutch are not in the Rotella oils. The main words we look for are " energy conserving" on the label. If the words "are" there , we avoid the oil

some of the harley guys are going with rotella too...

i'm still using redline.....in all 3 holes....just not the same stuff in all 3

Ive seen that mentioned on the harley forums. Actually I saw it on the shadow sabre board too. Im using harley oil but i know its not really thier oil. I went with the regular stuff but i may change to synthetic for the 5000 mile change. anyone catch on to this? 5000 mile change . Thats 1 change at 1k and another at 5k and on a machine that should kill oil cause
of hi temps with an air cooled engine. Why is it the big 3 want us to change oil in our cars every 3k??  Maybe MONEY?? I still do mine every 3 k specially the ones under warranty so i can document it in case of a problem. Good post though and good reading

Dave

[1FATGMC]

I've been reading this topic on other boards with interest since I hope to fire the 383 I'm building in a few weeks.  

Here is something I copied from an other board and saved:

I just got done replacing the performance cam in my modified 302 GMC inline 6 engine.The previous performance cam wiped out in 600 miles despite following breakin rules to the letter and then some.

Many calls to major cam grinders all came up with the same reason,oil manufacturers have greatly reduced the zinc and phrosporus in motor oils as a response to those additives ruining catalytic convertors.The zinc or ZDDP is added to protect against metal to metal contact,especially on flat tappet cams,especially on performance cams with stiffer valve springs.It seems that 15-40 Diesel oils and for sure Valvoline VR conventional racing oils still have high levels of the important additives.A few years back,they starting getting many warranty claims that never occured before.Took them awhile to figure out the problem.Obiviously,this isn't a problem with roller lifters or new engines designed to run on the low zinc oil.

The cam grinders also said,a solid lifter flat tappet cam wipe out process starts and break and gets worse from there.

I had to completely teardown the engine,clean out all the metal debris,replace the bearings,fortunately,no other damage.With the new cam,I used GM oil supplement,15-40 Castol Diesel oil for initial start up.I'm using 20/50 Valvoline racing oil now after breakin.
I just checked the valve adjustment after about 500 miles.Valve cover off,engine running,all the pushrods are spinning like a madman with one foot nailed down, should be good to go.

Pretty much what you posted Frank.  Seems the consensus is the critical break in period with a flat tappet cam.  After that I would use any oil you feel comfortable with (I've now switch everything I have over to the extended Mobile One and Like it a lot).  Another problem was that since all the OEMs have gone to roller cams only a couple manufactures were left making flat tappet lifters and a lot of "off shore" inferior ones were coming on the market.  Combine those with the zinc problem led to failures during and after breakin.

I just spent a little more for Comp lifters for this build and they promised me that they weren't made off shore (hope that is true).  There again they have them made to their specs by one of the few makers left.  It sounds like after the shortage production was increased.

I'm not sure what I'll use when I fire this motor, but it will probably be the diesel oil and maybe the GM additive.  After the cam breakin I might switch to a dyno oil with the additive for a thousand miles or so and then to the Mobile 1.

c ya,

Sum

[Arnold]

This was forwarded to me, and I thought it might be of interest to the members. This was discussed a while back, and there is some more info here.

While at dinner at Pigeon Forge this past weekend, we had an interesting conversation about problems with cam wear with flat tappet lifters and today's oil quality. The bottom line is that zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) has been drastically reduced in today's oils.

Zinc in combination with phosphate has been used in the past to help protect cam lobes and lifters from extreme pressure wear factors. Beginning in the mid-90's the manufacturers asked the oil companies to reduce the ZDDP in oil because it was causing emissions problems. When higher mileage engines began to develop some blowby, it would cause problems with oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Since all the manufacturers had gone to roller lifters on their engines they did not need the zinc protection.

The resulting reduction in ZDDP has been causing cam and lifter failures in flat tappet cam use. An article in the June issue of Hot Rod magazine covered this in detail, but the bottom line is that oil with a rating above SH has significantly less additive. For example, SH oil had .130 zinc and 120 phosphorous. Today's oil, SL, has .087 Zinc and .080 phosphorous. It is believed that further reductions are expected in the future.

So what do we do? Comp Cams claims that Shell Rotella T oil is great for engines with flat tappet cams and no oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. Rotella T is a diesel truck oil, but meets today's SL as well as CI-4+. CI-4 is the designation for Diesels and relates to the zinc and phosphorous content. The zinc is .140 and the phosphorous is .130. Because of the two chemicals, it is not recommended for engines with oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. Another solution, if you are going to use today's oil, is to add a 4 ounce bottle of GM camshaft and lifter lube to each oil change. It is part #12345501. When breaking in a new cam, GM EOS Assembly lubricant, part#1052367 is recommended. It is in a 16 ounce bottle. The cam manufacturers may have their own break in oil as well.

Starting in 2007, trucks will start getting catalytic converters, so Rotella T will likely begin reducing the ZDDP content. So, the other suggestion is to use racing oil. It may be marked for off road use only, because it has ZDDP and is not recommended for todays emission controlled vehicles. However, for our use, it is a good solution when Rotella T changes. Pennzoil 20w-50 racing oil has .196 zinc and .180 phosphorous. Quaker State Q racing oil has .200 zinc and .180 phosphorous. Quaker State racing oil has a variety of viscosities that may be more suitable.

If you think this would be useful to others on your distribution list, please forward it. In the meantime, Shell Rotella T is readily available at Wal-Mart and is inexpensive.

 Great stuff there Frank..I wonder how the Quaker State "Diesel Oil"..The HDX 15-40 stacks up..

[river1]

could this oil problem have contributed to charlie's cam problem?

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5385

just wondering?

later jim

[Uncle Bob]

could this oil problem have contributed to charlie's cam problem?

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5385

just wondering?

later jim

Anti-wear additives such as ZDDP have no effect on plain bearings such as the cam or main/rod bearings.  The metal is too soft to trigger the chemical reaction.  Charlies problem was likely lack of lube (misaligned supply hole?) or some misalignment (bearing or/and journal) that wouldn't allow hydrodynamic film build.

[Ed ke6bnl]

One heck of a Shell salesman if this is where this rumor was derived from, I have been using the shell Rotella oil in my tractor diesel after reading about it some 8 years ago.  Ihave been using it for a year in my old vehicles but I am finding that it is out of stock at walmart lately since this craze has caught on.  I read an article that the cam makers are having an abnormal amount of flat lobe cams on recent cams maybe that is just an extension of the rumor. This I read in one of the mags, could possible find it I marked it to show my son.

[Leon]

I just installed the 330 hp GM crate motor in my 54 and after reading all of the stuff on oil and cams, I changed the cam to a Crane roller unit just before installation.  I hated to pull a brand new cam out but I feel good that I shouldn't have to worry about it down the road.

[Dave]

I just installed the 330 hp GM crate motor in my 54 and after reading all of the stuff on oil and cams, I changed the cam to a Crane roller unit just before installation.  I hated to pull a brand new cam out but I feel good that I shouldn't have to worry about it down the road.

I find it interesting that my 350 gm crate started and broke in fine on 10/40 valvoline? I was told years ago that the best stuff for breaking in a cam was the gm stuff they sold. I used it a lot back then when i rebuilt an engine and installed a new cam. I cant remember what they called it but id bet its still available.
Dave

[Crosley.In.AZ]

the oil change suggested by VW for my diesel Jetta is every 10k miles after the first one at 5k miles.

This diesel engine requires a special rated oil :  VW 505.01 rating, @ 10w-40.  Supposed to be for the camshaft wear in the area the fuel injection pump works on.

I've had to buy the Motul oil brand , now I can get the Q diesel plus oil for the VW.

[EMSjunkie]

Do you guys prefer a multi-viscosity oil, or a single viscosity oil?

was just kinda curious, I have been running Pennzoil for a long time. I used 30wt. in 2 vehicles, and 10-40 in 2 others. I haven't noticed any difference in wear, consumption, or leakage between the two oils.

any comments??

Vance

[Crosley.In.AZ]

Tony, the clutch concern is with "friction modified" oils, although that's somewhat of a mis nomer because it doesn't exactly define in which direction the frictional characteristics are modified.  As you're probably aware, ATF is modified to provide desireable friction characteristics in automatic transmissions.  Motor oils designed to help improve fuel economy are intended to be "slipperier", so there is the key in your correct reference to "energy conserving" being the tip off.

some folks yammer on about "moly" additives in the energy conserving.... oils.... I am not sure.  I use the Mobil 1 oil in my 1800 Goldwing , gold cap stuff.