Painting Flames Question

[rumrumm]

I am in the process of designing flames before the complete tear down begins. Having never done this before I have some basic questions I need answered. So here goes: Where do I get the pattern wheel that punches holes in the paper? Do you buy a pouncebag or do you make them? If you make them, how? What goes inside of them? And finally, is there a specific kind  of paper used for patterning? I have read articles on this in the past, but  they all assume a guy already knows this kind of stuff. Thanks for the help.

[Charlie Chops 1940]

Hmmmm, good questions. I've done traditional flames a few times and just used a grease pencil to rough them in, then skinny vinyl tape to outline them, masked in the nonflame part and moved on from there. That works okay if there aren't too many crossovers or other complications.

Maybe someone will junp in here with the answers. I had the sides of a '48 Chevy sedan delivery lettered up 20-some years ago and the sign guy used all that stuff you're asking about. Maybe look under sign supplies or such in Google or Dogpile. Got any circle track lettering/sign painter guys in the area? They would know.
Charlie

[DRD57]

I just freehand them on both sides. I get them close and you can't see both sides of the car at the same time anyway.

I dunno where to get the wheel. One of my buds who uses this method has a pounce bag made of an old sock with chalk dust in it. You can get the chanlk dust at the hardware store. They sell it to fill chalk line tools.

[enjenjo]

You get the marking wheel at a notions store. It's made for use by a seamstress. JoAnn Fabrics carries them

[unklian]

Pounce wheels,and Pounce pads,
are common in the hand painted sign trade.
Looking in the local Yellow pages for "sign supplies",or look for N. Glantz or Mid West Sign Supply online.
Powdered Chalk,usually White or Blue,is used in Pounce pads.
Han-See is one brand name.
Don't buy the reall smal pounce wheel with the fine teeth.
The holes in the paper need to be bigger.
Depending on the paper you use,it may be necessary to run sandpaper over the back of the pattern to open up the holes before use.

[rumrumm]

I have just found a site for the pounce wheel and pounce bag at www.MisterArt.com . Now what I need to know about is the paper. Will masking paper suffice or do professionals use a particular type of paper for this. Thanks for all of your responses thus far.

[unklian]

The most important thing is that the paper be BIG.

It's not that complicated.

[Leon]

Where do I get the pattern wheel that punches holes in the paper? Do you buy a pouncebag or do you make them?

I used a tracing wheel from the sewing department at Wal Mart, It makes holes big enough for the chalk.  For a bag I used an old sock, filled it with chalk and started tapping it on the pattern.  For paper, I used some Christmas wrapping paper that was left over - cheap and I had it on hand.  Used this stuff to do the flames on the 23 roadster.
Leon

[1FATGMC]

   

There is another easy way to do it.  Lay out the flames with tape on one side.  I use the 3M tape in different widths that is green not the blue stuff.  The green tape is thinner so the paint buildup at the tape line is less.  Also this stuff seems to work better laying it down and follows sharp curves easily.  

As you lay the tape down always make sure the tape in the hand that is not pressing it down is always moving back and forth at right angles to the tape line so you are constantly making curves.  You don't want any straight lines even for a couple inches.  I have a few and don't like them.  I start with regular 1/4 inch masking tape to get the flow and size of flames I want as you can easily pull it back and redo a section.  Once I have it close I use the better, thinner, green tape using the regular masking tape as a guide and then pull it off before going on.  

Don't just push the tape down with you fingers.  Get something like the nylon tool they use to install windshields and press the tape down good with it.  That way you won't get bleeding under the tape.

After you have the flames layed out on one side the way you want them then tape some green masking paper over that side.  You can tape various widths together to cover the side.  

Next take a pencil and rub back and forth at 90 degrees to the tape line under the paper and along the tape line, which is under the masking paper.  This will transfer the flames to the masking paper.

Take the paper off and cut along the mask line you have created with the pencil.  Now you have the flame outline and you can tape the paper to the other side of the car and mask with the thin line inside the cut paper and you have a mirror image of your flames.

The big plus here is that after you have taped the flame outline you can tape the paper to the tape line and you have also now masked off that side of the car.  You can create another copy on the other side like you did at first and cut it out and mask the first side with it.  This really cuts down on the tape you need to mask the flames.

Another hint.  If you don't want to pinstrip the flames later you can do this while painting them.  First I tape and mask the flames off as explained above.

Next I shoot blue (the color that I would pinstrip with) around the inside of the flames along the mask line.  Next I use 1/16 inch masking tape (that green kind) over the blue and right next to the tape that is my flame outline.  This will give me a 1/16 inch pinstrip (use 1/8 if that is what you want).

Next I run a piece of tape over the 1/16 inch tape and the tape next to it that outlines the flames.  This bridges and seals that area so no other paint gets into it.

Then shoot your  flames what ever the color you want.  Now when you pull all the tape you have a nice uniform 1/16 blue (or whatever color) around the flames.

Clear the whole thing and the pinstrip and the flames are both under the clear.

If this isn't clear then let me know.

c ya and good luck, Sum

[rumrumm]

Thanks to all of you who responded. I think I feel more confident about doing this now.

[unklian]

Practice on something else first.
It's not real complicated,but the experience will help.

[mrloboy]

One method we have used to layout flames and graphics is to draw the style of flame/graphic you want on a clear transfer sheet and use an overhead projector to transfer the image to the side of the vehicle.

By changing the position and angle of the projector you can vary the image until you get the visual appeal you are trying to achieve. You can stretch an picture a lot more than I would have believed possible and still retain a sharp enough portrait for the job.

Once you have accomplished this, you can trace the image with either a pencil or fineline tape. By simply flipping the sheet over and moving the projector to the opposite side of the vehicle, but at the same angles and distance, you easily duplicate your original draft. You can go back and forth from each side of the car and measure the locations of each and every lick until it is perfect, but as mentioned here on an earlier post, you can't se both sides at the same time anyway!

Works for me!  rj

[WZ JUNK]

Same style of flames overall.   Same number of tips side to side.  I use an airbrush to fade the colors into each other.  Start at the middle and layout the patterns going toward each side one flame at a time on each side until you need a break, then start from the bottom and work up toward the middle until you meet up with your first work, it seems to work for me.  There is a good book by Rod Powel on flame painting.  

I find that laying them out with the fine line plastic masking tape is about as easy as any other method.  I bought a pounce wheel and the chalk dust at a craft store but it really seemed that I could do them about as fast freehand.

[elVago]

I find that laying them out with the fine line plastic masking tape is about as easy as any other method.  I bought a pounce wheel and the chalk dust at a craft store but it really seemed that I could do them about as fast freehand.

I too find that laying them out freehand is easier.What I usually do is rough out one side with a Stabilo pencil and using 3M  1/8th paper tape(I'm not comfortable with either green or blue vinyl tape;too much creep on tight radii)lay out the flame design.Using that as a guide,I lay out the other side.It doesn't have to be dead on accurate but just similar.
  I don't spray anymore(for health issues)but I attended a HOK seminar once and the guy who was doing the demo did some really amazing flames using pearls.After masking,he started by spraying in the tips first and gradually working toward the front(main part)of the design.The result?Almost no tape edge at all and he had great coverage!
  Every flame job I've ever done has been exactly the opposite and I used to really fight with edge buildup.On his flames,one light coat of clear would've buried the edge with no sanding required!
  Most of my flame jobs today consist of laying out and then striping afterwards or doing just stripe flames which I lay out the same way.
                                      Ray

[WZ JUNK]

I got this months Streetrodder Mag yesterday and I read the article on flame painting with water based paint.  I was really impressed.  I thought, I wonder what this stuff cost. so I looked it up from a supplier on the net and was I surprised.  A 4 ounce container was a little over $5.00.   So you could buy 3 colors and have it shipped to your door for a little over $20.00   I am going to try some in a couple of weeks and see how it works.