700R-4 for the first-timer?

[70_FathomBlueMalibu]

I've done so much research on this, that's it's starting to make my head spin.

Bottom line is....I have/had a 700R-4 in my 1970 Chevelle.  I got 2-3 years and about 2000 miles (tops) out of the 700R-4 before something broke and fragged the tranny.  The fluid is burnt and dark, plus it's making a LOUD chattering and squalling sound.  I found no chunks of anything in the pan, but guesses range from converter to flywheel to pump to.....etc.

Anyway, I had used THE best local tranny guy for this build.  He had done lots of race stuff, answered all my questions and said he kept up with all the updates.  If the converter went bad...not his fault.  If I had set it up wrong....not his fault (tho I think I did fine ).  If he failed to inspect a hard part and it went south...well, maybe....you get the idea.

So, I'm really entertaining the idea of doing it myself.  It's gotten to the point that I can't seem to trust many people to do stuff for me locally, so I try to as much for myself as possible.  I LOVE to learn, so it's a bonus.

I've NEVER rebuilt a tranny.  I've been quoted $250 labor from another local, reputable 700R-4 tranny guy.  That's for me to supply ALL the parts and bring it to him for a bench rebuild.  However, I'm still not sure if I trust this approach.

Anyway, my brother is a mechanic (brakes, suspension, exhaust, AC, etc.).  He's done one 700R-4 tranny and says that it's not that big of a deal when you have the proper tools (clutch spring compressor, lip seal tool, etc.) and a tech manual.  His 1 tranny was pressure tested and installed and did fine in a pedestrian truck.  He really wants to give me a hand to rebuild my own high-performance tranny.  I'm game.

BUT, am I crazy?  I'll be buying a 700R-4/dedicated video and studying it before pulling the trigger on the whole deal, but I'd like some input from you guys.  I'll have to buy the tools, video and at least 2 manuals.  My brother has a nice, clean garage with plenty of space.  So, it seems like I've got that squared away.

HOWEVER, I need my '70 Chevelle daily driveable and RELIABLE by the end of this coming February.  It will have to make a 600+ mile trip to Houston, TX where I'll begin driving it EVERY day to the School of Automotive Machinists and on to work.  

Short story long , should I just say forget it, buy the good parts and give someone $250 and my trust to do it right?  Or take a chance with my brother (save that $250 for even better hard parts) and trust our mechanical skills and aptitude to get this done?

BTW, the intended usage is daily driving with a sparse amount of strip time.  Houston has too many local tracks for me to stay away.  The car is 3540lbs. w/driver and a full tank of gas.  It should be good for mid-to-high 12's in the 1/4.  No dyno time, but it should have 435hp/400+ ft.lbs. of tq.

My brother and I agree that trannies are the part of the rodding world that people tend to feel are "black arts" or "voodoo".  The average guy just won't touch 'em.  Should I be scared as well?  I'm sure I'll know more after watching the video.

Thanks for ANY and ALL constructive criticism, advice and comments.  Feel free to be borderline brutal if you must.  

[Gilles]

I rebuilt myself the TH700R4 I have in the 32 roadster. It was the first time for me to open an automatic transmission.

I ordered a Transtar rebuild kit and a Transgo kit. Bought a ATSG manual during a trip to the States. I followed carrefully all the instruction lane by lane (130 pages) put all the parts on a  5 meters long clean table, took photos.
I home-made some spring compressor and used hose clamps around a fin sheet of stainless as resizing tool for the teflon rings. It took for me 30 hours to do the rebuild. But had to be specially carrefull as one part or one gasket broken means for me to order it from the USA!

Thought not an easy job, this rebuild was a succes. This transmission works fine and I did 9000 km(5600 miles)with it this summer.

Gilles

[purplepickup]

My brother and I agree that trannies are the part of the rodding world that people tend to feel are "black arts" or "voodoo".  The average guy just won't touch 'em.

I have a friend that makes it look so easy but he has probably 25 or more years experience.  To me it's voodoo so I always let him do mine.  But it is definitely something you can learn and do.  There are a few people here that know a lot about trannys and can probably answer questions that the video or book might not cover.  I'm sure someone will give you some basic pointers like "keep everything clean.....use lint free rags", "know what parts to carefully inspect for wear or damage" and "make sure you set the TV cable correctly".

Crosley, a member here,  has some good info on his website http://www.geocities.com/crosley_az/4l80e.htm

By the way, welcome to the RRT.
:b-d:

[Crosley.In.AZ]

I always tell folks that ask me about rebuilding a 700 tranny..... there is a difference between replacing parts and rebuilding a tranny.


If you have a book , a video & someone that has been inside a 700 you have a better chance of the tranny functioning fine.

[entodad]

I agree with you on not being able to trust rebuilds, I had a TH-200C rebuilt a few years ago, it tore up less than 3 days after I got it back.  They fixed it again, but I kept having problems with it shifting.  finally after fooling around with the TV cable for several weeks, I read up on it and decided that the governor was the problem.  when I removed it, it was apparant that the o-rings on the governor were never replaced.  

I did my first 700r-4 this past summer.  I spent over a month researching what to do and preparing the tools.  I bought the video, two service manuals, an ASTG manual and made sure that I was very familiar with each and every part of the tranny.
I did my first rebuild on a tranny that was still working, just tired, to minimize the number of parts that were broken badly.
Once I started, I realized that the rebuild that I was doing was not what I was paying for when I got a 5-700 dollar rebuild.  I was replacing all the the bushings, upgradeing the TV boost valve, upgrading the 3-4 clutch pack, upgrading the 1-2 accumulator spring, replacing both sprags, replacing the valve body plate, carefully checking each and every piece.  Eventually I had to replace the converter lock up solenoid along with the TCC valve.  When I finished (about 4 weeks after I started tearing it down) I had a tranny rebuild that would have cost over 1000 dollars and my total expense was about $400, along with the knowledge that I didn't skimp on anything.  I am planning to do 3 more trannys in the next few months.

So take your time and have a good time learning how to do the build.
Doug

[Crosley.In.AZ]

the 'voo doo" comes in when there is a problem with the tranny.  


the DIY often has no clue what is wrong. Then they ask the tranny guru for an answer. How can a tranny person know what is wrong when there can be several things that cause the same syptoms?

I have receieved some real snotty responses to answers I gave about tranny problems from DIY folks.  They seem to think all problems are black & white with a simple "tab A into slot B " answer... they are not.

I recently recieved a couple of snotty attitudes on a board I moderate on....  these folks will recieve no further answers from me. If they receive bad answers I will not correct that either.


I am kinda thinking out loud here.

[purplepickup]

I recently recieved a couple of snotty attitudes on a board I moderate on....  these folks will recieve no further answers from me. If they receive bad answers I will not correct that either.

I don't blame you a bit.  If the people don't want to listen to your advise, why the heck are they asking for it?  I have seen you exercise a lot of patience before too.

In your 25+ years of experience you've seen a lot of stuff and learned from it.  That's why you get the BIG BUCKS

Kidding aside, I'd rather spend a few extra bucks to have someone tear down and rebuild a tranny that has the experience and knowledge to diagnose problems while the parts are being disassembled.  I could imagine what you'd say if someone brought you a tub full of parts and said "This used to be a Ford AOD-E transmission that didn't shift right so I tore it down and everything looks alright to me....whaddayathink?  Can I have it back by tomorrow and what's your guarantee?  Oh yeah, I'm on a budget so I hope it doesn't cost over a couple hundred bucks.....ol buddy"

I'm not saying the 70_FathomBlueMalibu shouldn't try to learn to rebuild his own tranny.  I know a lot of you guys do your own and you all had to start somewhere.  It just seems like you have to do it carefully and if there were problems you need to know what to pay attention to.  Like you said....that's where the voodoo comes in.

I rebuilt a 350 TH once and it worked good but I noticed that it shuddered going into 3rd gear after a while.  When my friend, the tranny expert, tore it down he saw what the problem was right away and asked what the part measured when I rebuilt it.   Duh.....I didn't know enough to do that.   I trashed a lot of parts because of that oversight :|

[Gilles]

always tell folks that ask me about rebuilding a 700 tranny..... there is a difference between replacing parts and rebuilding a tranny.

Yes I have to apologize that what I did was replacing parts on a transmission that certainely worked great before I dissassembled it. I found the rearward discs damaged thought. I also did the improvements explained in the Transgo kit without to really understand what every spring or small piston exactly does!  :oops:

Sure I would be in trouble to diagnosis what's wrong  if the transmission starts to fonction improperly. I will have to ask on the usefull and friendly Roddingrountable in this case...  :oops:  

I really like to learn to do myself as much as possible on my cars. And it's almost impossible to find a place to have an automatic transmission rebuilt in France, as most of the cars have manual gearbox.


Gilles

[1FATGMC]

I really like to learn to do myself as much as possible on my cars. And it's almost impossible to find a place to have an automatic transmission rebuilt in France, as most of the cars have manual gearbox.

Gilles

Gilles I'll say that you have me thinking about rebuilding a 700R4.  I guess I'm like you and would like to understand and be able to fix as many things as I can.  I don't usually look at it as a way to save money, at least not the first time, but a way to add more tools and knowledge.

I worked a little while in new house construction for a guy and was amazed that say a carpenter would be around sheetrock guys, plumbers, electricans, etc. and never pick up on what they were doing.  What a perfect opportunity to learn first hand from others.  If they had an electrical or plumbing problem at home they picked up the phone and called for help.  They would tell me they couldn't build their own house since they only knew how to frame.  I'm all eyes and ears anytime I'm around someone who knows how to do something I don't and even if I think I know how to do it chances are I'll still pick up a new trick.

Thanks for giving me the encouragement to try rebuilding an automatic.

c ya, Sum

[70_FathomBlueMalibu]

Sorry that I haven't gotten back sooner to this topic.  I've had computer problems for a day or 2 and just now got it lined out.

Thanks for the responses so far.  I've decided to go ahead with the rebuild and look forward to adding to my gearhead independence.  I love to learn and hope this is a worthwhile (and positive) experience.

I just hope Crosley and others are willing to lend a hand when I come up with a plethora of questions.

For starters:

When this tranny was originally rebuilt, the builder convinced me to go the non-lockup route.  He installed a Transgo valve (?) that allowed it to work with a non-lockup converter.  If the current converter is trashed anyway, is it possible to make this tranny lock-up again with the proper converter?  I'd like the extra mileage and performance gains.

On the standard performance build, would it be better to use 9 "thin" clutches or 8 full-sized ones in the 3-4?

Is a Kevlar band necessary or worthwhile in my application?  If so, would it best to have a brand new drum?

What other parts are a "must upgrade" for a moderately serious performance and daily driver application?  I'd like a firm and positive shift feel.

Thanks for any and all comments.