Starter hesitation..

Charlie Chops 1940 · June 17, 2013, 08:02:58 PM

This is on my track roadster. It has 10:1 compression 4 cylinder Chevy II. The starter is a late model gear drive Delco unit. Optima battery charges good and maintains. The problem has basically existed since I put the car together and the parts were new 5500 miles ago.

Turn the key, hot or cold, ignition enabled or coil wire pulled, and it acts like excessive timing, even though initial is only about 6 degrees advanced. It spins real slow for 3 or 4 revs and then picks right up and starts. I campaigned all of the battery and ground cables for good connections and added star washers where there weren't any. I have extra chassis to the engine and engine to the body grounds.

I'm kind of thinking that I've got a bum starter.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Charlie

enjenjo · June 17, 2013, 08:37:06 PM

Check to see if the armature bushings are bad.

Charlie Chops 1940 · June 17, 2013, 09:57:43 PM

Quote from: "enjenjo"Check to see if the armature bushings are bad.

I'll be removing the starter tomorrow and replacing it with another one I have in stock. Then I'll take a look inside.

Thanks Frank,

Charlie

wayne petty · June 18, 2013, 12:08:35 AM

before you pull the starter...

please run a few tests with a digital volt meter...

positive battery post.. not the terminal. post.. to the threaded stud on the starter.. make an extension harness with a ring terminal and some wire... to allow you to measure the voltage drop between the starter and the battery post...

post results.. should be less than 1.0 volts while cranking...

next.. do a similar test from the engine block to the negative battery post...

if your battery is mounted in the rear... use a set of jumper cables.. to allow you to test from the battery to the front of the car... this will still give you a proper voltage drop test... again.. on the negative side.. less than 1.0 volts DC while cranking...

the actual voltage drop depends on current of the starter and the size and length of the cables...

what you are measuring is the difference in the voltage between the 2 places...

copper wire has resistance to the flow of electrons...

if you have 12.65 volts at the battery... and you have a 120 amp draw with 2 gauge cable 60 inches long.. you will have around a volt of difference..

this does not measure the drop in the voltage from the draw on the battery.. this measures the resistance in the circuit while the starter is running..

there is a way to calculate this.. don't have a clue..

all i know is that you have to run the voltage drop test...

this will solve the issue .. where the restriction in the current flow is...

when you have a slow to engage starter... there is a current restriction someplace...

my normal voltage drop tests also find it.. practice on other cars... you would not believe how many cars i have fixed with this 2 minute test..

engine running.. headlights on...

digital volt meter set to 20 volts DC...

1. measure positive battery post to the negative battery post.. 14.1 to 14.8 volts is expected..

2. measure negative battery post to the engine block... 0.04 volts MAX is acceptable...

3. measure Negative battery post to the body... 0.02 volts MAX is acceptable..

4. measure engine block to the body . usually at the firewall. 0.02 volts dc max is acceptable.

if you get more than the 4/100th or 2/100th of a volt then you have an issue with that circuit.

if you don't have a digital volt meter.. and it only takes a 5 buck version to run these tests..

take your jumper cables... hook both to the engine block... hook both of the other clamps to the negative battery post.. then attempt to crank the engine.. this bypasses any issue with the negative battery cables .. if it cranks great while both negative jumper cables were connected.. you will need to go farther with repairing the negative side cables..

Charlie Chops 1940 · June 20, 2013, 07:45:02 PM

Wayne,

I did your last test as I had a long enough set of jumper cables. Still the same. I haven't had time to rig a set of longer wires for the digital meter. Maybe tomorrow morning.

Thanks,

Charlie

Charlie Chops 1940 · June 27, 2013, 01:53:44 PM

Been busier than a cat covering...

Wayne, thanks for your hepl. All the other test fells very close to the parameters you suggested. I ordered a new replacement starter last Friday. It came yesterday and I swapped it out just now.

The car is running a half a nano second after turning the key. The original starter was bum from the very first.

I'm smiling again.

Charlie

phat46 · June 27, 2013, 02:58:41 PM

It's amazing how many parts are junk right out of the box nowadays, starters, master cyls. Alternators, etc, etc.

unklian · June 27, 2013, 06:06:43 PM

Quote from: "phat46"It's amazing how many parts are junk right out of the box nowadays, starters, master cyls. Alternators, etc, etc.

Yes. :cry: :cry:

:cry:

Arnold · June 27, 2013, 06:58:58 PM

Quote from: "phat46"It's amazing how many parts are junk right out of the box nowadays, starters, master cyls. Alternators, etc, etc.

I talked to a mechanic very recently who worked in a very reputable garage who did a huge percentage of their business in wheel bearings.
He was doing a wheel bearing job in an around servicing my car..waiting for parts..I remarked I guess you just change both sides..the other will go soon..

He said..NO not anymore..too many of the replacement bearings..including OEM and really good quality names..are just junk now.
He said customers get really POD..(understandably) when you change the bad part..ok..BUT! when you change another very similar part because you think it is going to fail soon..like the other one..
and the new one packs it in in 2 weeks.

Beck · June 27, 2013, 11:31:45 PM

Quote from: "phat46"It's amazing how many parts are junk right out of the box nowadays, starters, master cyls. Alternators, etc, etc.

Quote from: "Arnold"I talked to a mechanic very recently who worked in a very reputable garage who did a huge percentage of their business in wheel bearings.
He was doing a wheel bearing job in an around servicing my car..waiting for parts..I remarked I guess you just change both sides..the other will go soon..

He said..NO not anymore..too many of the replacement bearings..including OEM and really good quality names..are just junk now.
He said customers get really POD..(understandably) when you change the bad part..ok..BUT! when you change another very similar part because you think it is going to fail soon..like the other one..
and the new one packs it in in 2 weeks.

I had the same thing 2 weeks ago. My wife's car had a bad rear wheel hub. I suggested to the shop to change them both. They said no we will just do the bad one.. I wanted to give them the job/money they said no.

Glad you got it going Charlie.

wayne petty · June 28, 2013, 12:10:10 AM

wait... mechanics who don't want to change everything is sight..

or sight...(+) as in telescopic sight..

wow...

somebody just yesterday complained to me about all the crooked mechanic shops out there... then continued to the corrupt body shops...

i said.. its not the mechanics fault.. the shop owners used to be lawyers before they were debarred.... so they had to find a different way to fleece the public with a smile..

Charlie Chops 1940 · June 28, 2013, 05:17:55 AM

Some interesting comments.

I think we, as consumers, and our family based repair support system are just responding to the almost incomprehensible changes in the supply chain and lack of corporate responsibility. It hardly needs describing to anyone on this board as we have all been victims in one way or another.

I have a problem with where the products we buy comes from but not because it's from there, where ever that might be, but that the control and responsibility for quality at all levels can not be assessed until we put the part on our car or truck, the drug in our body or the dog food in the dish. I'd just like to be thanked for being their final inspector.

When the rush to offshore producers first got started I still bought wheel cylinder kits, master cylinder kits, etc...then the rubber wasn't any good. Then I got new cylinders machined wrong, parts missing, etc. etc.. XXXX Know How don't mean diddly when the part ain't worth crap.

I feel a lot of kinship with for the small independent repair shops who get inundated with do-overs and very frustrated customers.

This got solved with a new off-shore replacement starter. I already had the bad Delco Remy, backed by the General.

Charlie

Arnold · June 28, 2013, 08:26:20 AM

Quote from: "Charlie Chops 1940"Some interesting comments.

I think we, as consumers, and our family based repair support system are just responding to the almost incomprehensible changes in the supply chain and lack of corporate responsibility. It hardly needs describing to anyone on this board as we have all been victims in one way or another.

I have a problem with where the products we buy comes from but not because it's from there, where ever that might be, but that the control and responsibility for quality at all levels can not be assessed until we put the part on our car or truck, the drug in our body or the dog food in the dish. I'd just like to be thanked for being their final inspector.

When the rush to offshore producers first got started I still bought wheel cylinder kits, master cylinder kits, etc...then the rubber wasn't any good. Then I got new cylinders machined wrong, parts missing, etc. etc.. XXXX Know How don't mean diddly when the part ain't worth crap.

I feel a lot of kinship with for the small independent repair shops who get inundated with do-overs and very frustrated customers.

This got solved with a new off-shore replacement starter. I already had the bad Delco Remy, backed by the General.

Charlie

I recently priced out some wheel bearings. The price range was
right around $20 INCLUDING shipping haha..(Ebay) right up to $256..PLUS shipping and they had to be ordered.There is just something
terribly,terribly wrong when not only is there such a discrepancy..but there is a very,very good probability that there is really no difference in quality.
This popular respected garage I spoke of..gives customers the option..and plain tells them..the expensive ones do have a better warranty..they do not last any longer. We will honor any manufactuers warranty on the part..we charge labor again for their replacement.

My g/f phones me as that garage is doing wheel bearings in her
3/4 ton HD GM 4x4. They ask her if she wants the cheap bearings at around $100..or the expensive ones at close to $400.She asks me.
Ya..like I would know.

The garage is impartial..

Just something very wrong..USED to be "offshore" "JUNK"

SEEMS like WE can make our very own crap just as BAD :evil: NOW

phat rat · June 28, 2013, 09:16:50 AM

A mechanic I use for those jobs that I don't want or can't do has told me about his frustration with bad parts. He said sometimes he doesn't even get the parts installed before realizing they are bad.

enjenjo · June 28, 2013, 09:52:05 AM

Fatcat is replacing the engine in his Olds van right now. The shop I use for late model repair work advised us on what parts to use on the replacement engine by part number and manufacturer, since so much of the rapair parts are junk. And three months from now the list may be different than it is today. Long established brands that used to be trustworthy, no longer deserve that label.