Do High Flow H2O PUMPS make a difference?

[Dirk35]

Do High Flow H2O PUMPS make that much difference?

Well, I mean enough to warrant spending $180 -vs- $17 and a core for a rebuilt one? Its on a Ford 302 Engine in the 1935 Ford PU.

[av8]

Do High Flow H2O PUMPS make that much difference?

Well, I mean enough to warrant spending $180 -vs- $17 and a core for a rebuilt one? Its on a Ford 302 Engine in the 1935 Ford PU.

If you've made any modifications that might affect engine temperature (raised compression, increased bore size), or if you have or are going to add A/C, increased coolant flow is for sure a benefit.

But you needn't jump up to $180 to get increased flow. A Speed-Pro/Carter "Competition Series" aluminum pump for '86-'92 5.0 302 is $64.95 through PAW. Their order line is 818-678-3000. Their catalog number for the pump is TRW-FP1008HP.

BTW, if you order a pump from them tell them you want a catalog as well -- 1172 pages, all good stuff, no trash-and-trinkets, and they pay shipping on everything, including complete motors!

Hope this helps.

Mike

[1FATGMC]

Do High Flow H2O PUMPS make that much difference?

Well, I mean enough to warrant spending $180 -vs- $17 and a core for a rebuilt one? Its on a Ford 302 Engine in the 1935 Ford PU.

On my sbc a stewart pump has made a difference at idle and up to about 1500 rpm over a stock pump.  Going down the road I can't tell a difference.  The Stewart isn't that expensive.

c ya, Sum

207 mph with Hooley

[Glen]

I switched to a stewart on my 27 and noticed it helped in stop and go traffic, same as fatgmc.

There were same great in depth threads on the old RRT that discussed this philosophy of too much flow.  Some very good info.

[Dirk35]

I remember reading about too much flow and airation on the RRT about 5 years ago when Kerry ran it.

Mike, Id really like to have a PAW catalog. I need to get one someday. Ive heard mostly all good about them.

I have come to the conclusion that the water pump is different on the 85-89 F100 302's. So much so, that they dont make an aluminum pump for them, and there is a side note "that the JEGS guy didnt read to me, but thats a MOO point now, hehe" that the newer water pumps will NOT work with the pick-up external balancer.

Fords are so messed up in this manner.

Also, the water-pump that JEGS and Summit make for 302 Ford, is the one for 87 up standard rotation, V belt, has a different bolt pattern than almost all other Ford pulleys, and requires a small shim inside the pulley to work, after its re-drilled and shimed up, that is.

[enjenjo]

and requires a small shim inside the pulley to work, after its re-drilled and shimed up, that is

I make up an aluminum crank adapter, and use SBC aftermarket pulleys on SBF engines, outside of the crank, the rest of the pulleys will fit, and are much cheaper.

I have been known to use Ford alternator brackets on chevys too, but that's another story

[HOTRODSRJ]

A friendly just sent me the thread URL for this subject without querry, so I am assuming that they wanted me to chime in with some sort of reply?

In short, increasing the flow will ALWAYS improve heat transfer!  So, all this high performance high-flowing or hi-volume pump stuff is true. But, it's what you do with the heat when it gets to the outside heat transfer point.  If your radiator has the muster to throw off the heat due to area and airflow then things are all around better.  If your system won't handle the extra heat then things are really no better.

I have tested alot of these aftermarket and stock pumps and seen the differences.  First, the old stock designs are dramatically inferior to the newer aftermarket designs. Even with the "backplate" add-on, some performance levels actually drop!  So, abandon that idea if nothing else.

The best pumps that I have personally witnessed are the Tuffstuffs, Stewarts and Edelbrocks.  They have a very distinctive bulbous intake plenum and outperform the others.

[PeterR]

In short, increasing the flow will ALWAYS improve heat transfer!  So, all this high performance high-flowing or hi-volume pump stuff is true. But, it's what you do with the heat when it gets to the outside heat transfer point.  If your radiator has the muster to throw off the heat due to area and airflow then things are all around better.  If your system won't handle the extra heat then things are really no better.

There is a little more to add to this for completeness.

Increasing the water flow rate will increase the heat transfer providing the thermal gradient is maintained.   However, if the radiator can not shed the heat fed to it then the temperature of the return water will inevitably increase.

As the temperature of the return water rises, the gradient within the engine decreases and the gradient across the core increases until equilibrium is reached.   For any engine cooling system there is an optimum balance which maximises heat transfer.

For motors with a reasonable sized radiator the optimum flow rate may be higher than the stock pump can provide at low revs and a HiFlo pump will improve the situation.    

However if the radiator is on the mean side, then the optimum rate is likely to the met by the stock pump and the HiFlo will not provide any improvement.

If the radiator is undersized and really struggling to keep the engine cool then high flow rates actually aggravate the condition.   The classic example was the racing Cooper S that at the best of times exhibited borderline overheating and drivers routinely removed the thermostat only to find the situation became worse.    The factory produced a throttling plate with metering hole to replace the thermostat and the improvement was immediate.

[HOTRODSRJ]

Yep....Pete...most of what you offer here is exactly on and good job of detailing it further.

But, in the case of your last statement with all due respect is off a tad.

"If the radiator is undersized and really struggling to keep the engine cool then high flow rates actually aggravate the condition. The classic example was the racing Cooper S that at the best of times exhibited borderline overheating and drivers routinely removed the thermostat only to find the situation became worse. The factory produced a throttling plate with metering hole to replace the thermostat and the improvement was immediate.

One of the critical elements that you are leaving out of high flow models is turbulence. The higher flow also improves efficiency with higher turbulence rates.  But, even in undersize radiators the "delta temperture difference" will be still greater at  the radiator causing the heat transfer to be greater to the outside world in the real world, even tho it might still be in an "overheating mode".  So, flow is always a friend in a closed loop system even tho you might have run-away happening. Also, in a closed-loop system the slower the flow the more heat builds at the heat source. That's why the temp gauge goes up.  

Also I would submit that removing the thermostat from the Cooper's engine/cooling system could/may produce laminar flow which would hinder the situation and decrease the efficiency of the system.  Replacing with a metered hole plate simply reintroduces turbulence to the system and therefore puts the efficiency in place.  I have heard this exact story and was a common phenom in circle track cars/engines as well. The replacement of the "restrictor" actually made the system cooler than having no thermostat.  While the effect was known, the cause was not.  The removal of thermostats usually produce some sort of laminar flow in the system and effected the ultimate outcome of the temperature.  I have demonstrated this in bench cooling systems over the years as well.  Also, thermostats can be a real "plug" to the system by design. Taking them out could induce laminar flow as discused but adding the restrictor offered not only turbulence but INCREASED flow when compared to the thermostat.  So, it runs alot cooler.  

As corroboration I offer this similar example at

[Bruce Dorsi]

It looks like you were cut-off in mid-sentence, Steve, but I didn't do it.

I am following this thread with much interest, and I respect the input from Steve and Peter.

I do have a problem understanding some of the terminology, but I think I get the gist.

I have seen high-flow pumps advertised with flow rates in excess of 100gpm.  I can accept that the claims are realistic, based on the conditions under which the pumps are tested.  ....For the life of me, I can't imagine how you can get that amount of flow thru a common thermostat.  ....Is this possible to achieve in real-world driving situations, or is this just hype to get us to buy their pumps?


While observing water in a pan on the stove, bubbles can be seen forming on the floor of the pan before boiling occurs.  .....Stirring the water creates flow, which dislodges and eliminates the bubbles from forming again.  
.....I suspect the same amount of heat (BTU's) is required to raise the given volume of water to the boiling point, whether the bubbles are present or not.
.....My question is: ...Does the presence of the bubbles inhibit the RATE of heat transfer from the pan to the water, thus requiring more time to reach boil?

I also have read about the absence of a thermostat or restrictor causing laminar flow.  This I can accept.  .....But, how much heat is dissipated thru the hose, so why is laminar flow THERE a problem?  ......This may be another wrongful assumption on my part, but wouldn't laminar flow thru the hose be changed to turbulent flow, as soon as the water entered the radiator tank?  
......Isn't the flow thru the radiator tubes laminar flow?  

....Some aluminum radiators using round tubes, have spirally-wound strips inserted into the tubes, to induce swirl, thus forcing more of the coolant into contact with the tube walls.  

C'mon guys!....I'm dumb enough already, and I need your teachings!  ....Thanks for any insight you can provide!

[HOTRODSRJ]

Bruce........I don't know what happened myself......probably my mistake.

The last referral is to the www.stewartcomponents.com web site.  There is alot of good info there.

Also, my site at http://www.oldcarsonly.com/page/page/776395.htm

YEs indeed, some high volume pumps advertise AND DELIVER over 100 gpm at full tilt.  I have measured it myself!  That's why I suggest the three brand names that I do......I know they deliver. They also provide much improved flow at lower rpms and guess what......take less horsepower while doing it........and another feature.....will take higher rpms and never cavitate, another stock pump problem.

The upgrade to high volume water pumps can cause problems with your radiator cap by the way.  Your querry about the gallonage brings me to point out the following. Neglecting impeller by-pass (water leaking past the impeller due to the build up in back pressure because these are NOT positive displacement type pumps), increase water volume output in the same fixed volume space of the coolant system actually produces higher operating pressures.  This is especially true at higher rpms.  The increase in water volume can turn up the pressure at least several pounds on a common downflow radiator.  Crossflows have the cap located on the "suction" side and don't complain.  But, always upgrade your cap to at least a 14lbs cap.  Also, upping the operating temperature will do the same thing......increase the pressure. So..same thing applies there.

There is an inherent problem with trying to test a thermostat in a pan of boiling water.  You may be able to ascertain if it opens and closes in the proximity of the correct temperature, but there is a literal stratosphere of layers of water at different temperatures in a pan.  And, only the water at the very bottom (where the bubbles appear) are at boiling temperature obviously.  Gas bubbles coming off the bottom do NOT conduct heat as well as the heated surface either to answer your question.

Laminar flow is a REAL issue and becomes more prevalent the slower the coolant flows. If you open a downflow radiator and watch the flow its a pretty lucid event really.   Higher flow always induces more turbulence to the system which is a good thing.  The exit point of the water jacket if unabated will trickle into the upper hose. This exit is "calmed" by the hose itself and then dumps a rather mundane stream of water into the radiator.  By keeping the thermostat in place this helps agitate the exit water and improves the "turnover" of the molecules which carry this agitation to the tank of the radiator. When the agitated water flows thru the tubes this improves heat transfer.  The worst radiator configuration for this is crossflows. The exit, thermostat, upper hose and entire radiator is under water so to speak, so agitation is important here to be efficient.

Tubes.....ah yes.  Actually most tubes are NOT round but oval or elongated crossection construction!  The elongation of the tubes helps the flowing water come into contact with the outside of the tube.  Also some tricks as you have mentioned are spriral wires, baffling and dimpling to reduce laminar flow.

So, flow is a double whammy to increase the efficiency of the cooling systems.  More heat removal, transportation and higher turbulence rates.

I hope this helps in some way.